Death and All Their Friends / Coping with Death

She's not[inaudible]

doing so well. She's not too wing so well send your questions and get advice. Bobby and bugs. They're really nice with new topics every week. It's every thing in LGBT she's not doing, so she's not[inaudible]. Oh, Whoa.

Welcome to. She's not doing so well, the podcast that is unhinged in unfiltered but with a side of stuff.

Even funny now you're the are Bobby and his buck. I'm sorry, I just fucking sorry.

Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of if she's not doing so well, I'm the most confident, unconfident person in the world. Bobby and I'm Jay. You don't have a CEO. I like that. Yeah, you don't have a specialty like I'm the most and I'm a thick Harry Otter high. Does that make me a Cub? You're not a Cub, honey. You're an Otter. Okay, well one day. Ah, I have just like clear this, clear the air really quick cause I'm a really horrible friend. Oh, sorry. Yeah, happy birthday. Jim got that message about a day and a half late. Yeah. He's like, look at this record player I got from my partner and I was like, Oh cool. Like I was like, I wished Michael got me record players for back was so like was me. And I was like, he doesn't know it's my birthday. I knew. I was like, it's fine. I'm just going to go to bed. I know, I know. And I was like, the next day I was like, Oh happy birthday. And you're like, yeah, like well we just spent time in Montreal. It's fine. Which we missed two last episode. I went solo. I know, I listened. I was like shocked it. Well not like, Oh well happy birthday. No look my soul tree forward. Cause I was very like, you were a soul tree. I'm like guys. Yeah, yeah. It was different. We were alone. It was, cause it's very hard to like sweater ladder. You can't sweater, wetter sweater, sweater, sweater, sweater. Schweddy balls for messenger. Ally[inaudible] I remember what they said truthfully. There's the blank in mind when you're by yourself. First of all, I couldn't breathe. I kept having you talk kind of sound like, what was it like when you start talking? I'm like, yeah. Um, so and it just sounds normal, but with when you're by yourself you're like so and also this was a really great interview and um, no, I thought it was like, is he swimming underwater? Right. I had to a couple tries. I mean I was like really, really was MPRO she's like, sorry, but I got some compliments so, but we did miss you. I miss you. Cause it was very hard to like, there was a moment I was like, where the fuck is Jim at this moment? Cause I'm fucking arguing with myself. So I ran out of things to say, I really could have used you. Well you know what? I was busy celebrating your God damn birthday. And I'm like, listen, I'm so fucking stressed from the podcast. You're like, well it's my birthday. So I'm like, Oh happy birthday late. Fuck. Oh my God. Yeah. I still don't have a gift so, well I'll probably get away yet. Honey, you went to Kohl's and you're like, here's half my check. I got that Kohl's card, honey, I'm gonna buy that. Right. I got layaway. I don't really understand the point. I didn't want you to save your own money paid, so can you vent and then, but then they like hold the item that you want. Yeah, but like don't they always have more of the item? Like it's a shirt that they mastered and that's what I'm wondering like why do you, why is it like a sale? Like Oh this is on sale now. I can throw it on layaway and get that sale price even though I can't afford it today. All the way. Oh, so if you can't afford it, I feel like that'd be the only way that it would work. Like why, why else would you do that? Like to save your money on your own. That's why I've always wondered like can't you just save up for it and then go? I think a lot of people were hoping for secret Santa as the common cause. Have you ever heard that? Where they're like, some guy came to Walmart layaway and just bought everything and you're like, Oh, ah, Chris diamond ring on. They're like, I'm ready to lay away. Then five carat rings. Yeah, I don't, yeah, I don't. Do they sell those at Walmart? Oh, five carrots. Conium honey. And what does it produce? Zirconium cubic zirconium. They're like, this is five carats of fakeness. I'm like, thanks fakeness. You'd take anything? Take it. I'll take it. Oh my God. You just reminded me of something. RuPaul's drag race UK. Have you watched it? No, but I need, I am obsessed with someone better. Okay. Wait. Oh, it's so good. It really is. You're still on it? Like is she a judge RuPaul or is it just, it's recall call Michelle and I'm like, let's real British people. Yeah, but are the UKs or whatever. Um, so there's one person in their bag of chips. This bitch right here, bag of chips. I can't, I can't, like we're interviewing her. I already wrote her an email, but she doesn't want me back obviously. But we will Amos, she is his steer. Rick Cole, if she's ever in Columbus, I will look her up. Cause now I will watch a clip after this channel. Is this on on my own logo? Oh yeah, we have logo but it comes out like I guess in the UK comes out on like Wednesdays and they put it on logo on like Fridays. Yeah. It takes two days for them to ship it across the Atlantic. The pond. Do you know the internet wires go underneath the ocean? Isn't that weird? When I saw it out, I'm like, what? I'm like wait, actually was on the table separate like intern, like literally just cables on the water. Just cables just touched on around. Apparently they bury them. This is terrifying to me. I know and they're, they're running like fiber optics now, so they're like digging trenches and just like running Meyer behind it. I'm like, this just seems bizarre. That's crazy. Yeah, that really is. I don't want to think that that's how you sent your email back. A tannic data. I'm fucking Rose. Oh, speaking of Rose, did you see grand Vanderbilt's? Oh, I didn't know what it was until I saw her Instagram and it was like, paint me like one of, I was like, ah, like one of your French girls. I thought it was just grant naked. Like literally. I was like, so Grant's pretending to be naked, but tits weren't big enough. That's what I mean. I'm just being honest. I actually true, they were compressed. They were sorry. They should have been a little more voluptuous, a little more fell on for us and all out there. I'm trying to think of what else I've, since we've last talked. Oh well it's PO weeks while I was at a drag show. Wait[inaudible] well it was like a local, like a local, it was random. Okay. Like a performance, not like a craft Friday night with blah blah, blah. And I was like, Oh, okay. Mary Nolan or something. Is that her? Don't know. Anyway, so I'm there and I'm like, okay, cool. Like this is fun now to the stage and I don't remember their staging buddies. My fucking massage therapist that I went to one time. Oh and we know why you went there one time. Oh yeah. And he had them get that. Well, I didn't realize you weren't supposed to go under your underpants, but apparently, yeah, I think it was like this person has seen me basically naked in a non-sexual way. Like they were rubbing my body like, and I'm like, you at the bathhouse so well in the bathhouse was so fun. Oh my God, I'm so sorry. I'm going back. You're going to live there. You're going to be the person grieving the review online saying like, it's a cheap way to stay in Montreal for three days. Pay for a room for$5 and you can sit up for 24 hours. It's great. It was freak mass. He was like little cots in the rooms. I'm like, Oh, this is great. It was a little, I don't know, like you know those like metal beds that are like, Oh no. Yeah. It was gross. Barely held together. Right. It was like strike without support my weight. Yeah. I was like army beds or something. I don't know how to describe it, but if I were army men in those beds, honey, I was like a guy in a uniform or a submarine full of semen. You did it. You set it up. You said you went army Joe and you got me too. I was like, Oh my God. That's so funny. No, you laughed. I was like wow. Oop it, it worked. So what else is going on in your life, Jim? Wow. Know you're not traveling all around the world anymore. I have no, Oh wait. Actually I'm going to Madison in like a week. Said no one at first. Just kidding. Awesome though. I've actually watched all the great, you better like it cause I have a friend up there dropped around all your little postcards. Yup. She dad. Thank you. Yes, she moved there. Shoot. You know you used to work with her and now they have a beautiful house up there. Oh, so you're going for her job. Moved her up there for fun. Just for fun weekend. I've heard it's a really cool place. Oh it better be. It's going to be fun and eat a lot of fried cheese curds. Get it honey. I love those. She's currently got, there's so good poutine back to that. Oh, back to poutine. Falco. It always goes back to Poon Tam time. Um, Boone Tang. We also have really exciting news. Oh, well we're pregnant. I am pregnant. No. Ah, it's just the Montreal food baby. On Friday. We have a special interview that you're coming over for after six 30. I love it. Be here or be square honey. Well actually it can be later to be honest with you, cause I think we're going to send it later so that, so I have three friends coming in town.[inaudible] and nationally. Okay. Ashley's my best friend for growing up. You can Sarah, you can clump in that same thing because she knew me from my, like teenage up years. Well, late teens when you were straight. Right. She knew, they all knew. And then Emma is friends with Courtney. The one that I came out with, they were friends and then we became friends. So they're all three coming here. We're going to go to the HIO state game. Oh my God, that's so fun. They're all obsessed with somebody that we've interviewed before. Um, make a guess your own home. I'm just kidding. Not him. I was like, I don't know his name, but I can't remember his name. Don't call me any bitch. Manji Oh, a Manji is coming onto the show. He's not. He is. They're not, I don't know. I don't know either. The proper pronoun. They're to spirit, so I don't know. Yeah, actually that's a good question. We're going to ask him. We're going to ask them them. Sorry. Oh my God. I don't know. That's, I really don't know. I don't want him to do your makeup to, sorry. I would be down for that. Yeah, like wig and makeup. Like full, full face, full face. Give him a feeling that full face honey, honey back going be like 19 degrees. So yeah, we've got to come up with a good name for you. I mean, we'll figure it out. Like it's gotta be like, I mean, you like sour patch. You say like, I learned that Mac and cheese in a fucking microwave. Well, I'm gonna call you Mac or low. Well, I like it myself, so I'm not really gay. I was like, wow. Judgement. I guess it doesn't have to be a food name, but yeah, so Monty is going to come in, so I'll put up a poll if anyone wants to ask questions, but he's going to read. Tear it for Ashley because Ashley is where it, is that what you say it?[inaudible] taro. Oh Lord. Oh. Manji is going to have some work. That was the South of me on that. Tear it. Tear it card tear. It reminds me of tariffs. Now. What's the president doing? One? Fuck, fuck. Sorry. I can't ever say that word. Actually. Everybody makes fun of me to row. It's taro. Taro. Yeah. I don't know why it's that and I don't know what the, if it's like a French word and that's what the teas friends called[inaudible] how many times did you say, Oh my God, did I in Montreal while in Ygrene. Wait, did I mention that in the last episode? How I started speaking when I was doing my little joints on the street and, and I was like, Oh, Zuma Powell, Robert. Ah, I don't even remember now. I was like, you are in full French. It was weird. It was like full, full friends. And then in English I was French. So I was like saying like, instead of saying like, let's go over there. I was like, there's where we go. Yeah. I was like, Oh no boy. Even around all the words. So when I moved to Montreal, when we were ready, we knew we're going to grab that hot Tom honey Dumbo lifted into Montreal. Can I ride in it while we Dumbo it out? We'll sneak you out of the country. Oh, I'm ready. Yeah. Like we'll get you to declare I'm a big Harry Otter. Jim J I M no last name, no face. No face. Can we see a photo now? No, no, no. He said you can see his eyes, but that's it. ISO only. Oh my God, I can't wait to get you in drag. I just thought about that. That's gonna be[inaudible]. She's gonna do great. Um, um, what else? I don't know. I'm trying to think of all the little things we need to update everyone on. Well, one topic we need to update the Von, his death. Oh, the whole episode. Death. Death becomes us death and all his friends is one of my favorite Coldplay songs. You want to know how you know I'm gay? Um, just by looking at, you know, I like Coldplay. Oh, I love cold. I went to a Coldplay concert, so you know, I know you're gay. That's all I know. I loved them. I love cold pain. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Not sorry. They have a song called death and all his friends, so fucking good is out on the Viva Lavita album or I'm yep.[inaudible] Oh, I know honey, honey and me. There's a little a thing at the end. I'm like, it goes, the song plays and then it like goes off for a second. Then it comes back and it says like in the end we lie awake and we dream of making a escape or something like that. Oh my God, it's so good. Sorry to sing to everyone. But that was awful. Thank you. Can you speak okay? Oh, no, no, no. I think that's okay. Well, this episode's canceled. Thank you for listening. And it's me talking to loan again. Sorry. I gave it to them. I'm like, well, I didn't record it right. So I was all into it. I was all on that mic. I was even gripping it. I was like, Oh, you're calling me like you're in the bath house. Predator gripping and like grabbing the back of it and like just Oh army man. Oh, I grow me in that Kai wish. I mean it was a bunch of not thirsty bitches, but I was there and[inaudible] illegally. It didn't seem to go on a bare night. Yeah. Oh, I felt like I was like the fat fuck there, but it wasn't. There's other fatties we were in the whole city too though. Yeah. Like, I mean, to be honest with you though, well they eat a lot, bitch. They eat a lot and they smoke like, yeah. I love Montreal though. Like I'm going to go smoke and eat and just live my life and on the Metro. No car. I love the Metro. You don't even need a car. I don't want a car. I don't want a car. I don't either. I'm serious. Like I'm really upset at where we live right now. Like I need to get on the board. Okay. You know what city council vote me by man. I think there's an election coming up. Oh there probably is I there. Wow. That's really bad of me. But we need to figure it out cause I'm going to run for city Bernstein's. I'm going to be the change that we need to see in the world or Columbus or we need pro. Actually I saw a spot like a sponsored ad on Instagram and they are looking into like public transportation and better sign out a place to put a God damn rail and get us to the airport, get us to that fucking Clintonville and get us downtown downtown and get us to the East and the West bitch and North in the South. Gahanna God. Oh so death. Back to death. Sorry. Backed. Sorry. Not even back to it. Like we haven't even gotten to it yet. So we interviewed Tracy son dos. Did they see something else? And I was nervous at first. To be honest. You still are. I'm a not. Yeah I am. But death is obviously something that I've talked about. Not enough being, I don't know. I've talked about it like I'm scared of dying every at the shot up. I hate die. I'm like, I don't want to die. They're like, yeah, yeah, we got it the first time. Cool. No, now that I think about it, I think we mentioned it in every, every episode that death episode, Catholic death, anxiety hypochondria is Tara. Tara rot. So this episode gets deep. Um, there might be, I mean I don't think it's like sad. No. Oh no it's not, that's not sad at all. It's actually very interesting and in fact we will be going to our very first death cafe meeting and you'll find out what that means in this episode. That's right. Because you're gonna find out cause you have to cause you better fucking listen to this whole episode. Oh, the ratings or are relying on this please. I'm just kidding. My life depends on it. It does. But now it's time for the interview with who drew racy. Santos. Tracy Santos was so awesome. Yeah. Thank you, Tracy for coming in and trying to calm my fucking nerves, which you know me. But first, what's going to bring us into the interview is a song called risky by flume. And we're here with Tracy Santos today. Hi folks. Hi. Thank you for coming on. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. Yes. So tell us a little bit about yourself. I am 35. I just just turned 35. Oh, you're my age. I have been in Ohio for entirely too long at this point. And I am a queer woman living in Columbus. And when you say queer, what exactly does that mean? So it's a, it's a little

bit of a long story. Uh, I had always felt pretty comfortable identifying as BI really ever since I knew what that was. Um, but I just sort of bumped along merrily. Not really. You know, I dated mostly CIS het dudes for awhile. Ended up marrying one, ended up getting divorced and went, Ooh, I'm actually much gayer than, I thought that was an interesting thing to learn. Um, and so for awhile I was like, Oh no, just gay as the day. As long as it's 100%. And then met my partner who is non-binary and then uh, went, Oh, Oh well this is a thing that I wasn't sure about. All right, cool. We will, we'll go with this. And so as my understanding of my own gender fluctuates as my partner learns a lot more about themselves, queer seems like the easiest way to cover it. Yeah.

It's just whatever is just not straight. So for those that don't know what non nonbinary is, can you explain that? Sure.

So that is an umbrella term that covers folks who do not feel as if they feel strictly identified as a woman, strictly identified as a man in it covers things like being gender fluid, um, age, gender, you know, lots of, lots of different things that fit under that umbrella. But it's not one thing. Right.

Or another, and that's why, yeah, if you didn't say queer, you might be like defining the relationship in a way that might evolve to not really fit. So that's very interesting cause I think that's something that a lot of people don't run across. And that's awesome that you just explained that. So thank you. Um, so we're here because of death. Gabby has a life, but we're also here to die and that's how I feel about it. Um, I posted on a Reddit message board in Columbus and I was like, listen, like I'm looking for gas. Like I was just very broad and I said, ah, and edit it. And I was like, I'm also afraid of death. So if anybody like a specialist on that, let me know. And Tracy came along and she's like, hi. I mean, you know, so explained how death, how death affects you or how it became something that you like to discuss and why you're here. Really.

Yeah, definitely. Uh, I will start out by saying that I am not involved in, in deaf community work just because I am golf for life. Uh, I was born this way, but difference a different sector of my life. Um, so I actually got started in death related community care because my former spouse was diagnosed with stage for cancer and I was the primary caretaker and that puts you in a position to get very close with death very quickly. When most people my age aren't typically rubbing up against stuff, it's, it's not a concrete possibility in their life the same way that it was for us. In that process, I came in with hospice care workers and uh, folks who were a part of spiritual organizations, people whose role it really was to help families and patients deal with the idea of death. After that, as I was sort of reflecting and healing and kind of getting my life back together, I went, wow, these people have been so incredible, so helpful. It has made this such a different experience for me. I wonder if there's anything I can do that can help people. Like they helped me. There was a, it was a very scary moment because you realize the enormity of the responsibility you're taking on. You're really asking people to be very vulnerable for you in what is likely the worst part of their life. And I said, well, I'll try hospice care. I'll volunteer there, see if this is a thing I can do longterm, short term, we'll figure it out. Did it found that it was incredibly fulfilling? It was a really important part of my life very, very quickly. And then learned about the death positive moment and something about that really struck a chord with me and that's when I started doing more broadly focused stuff. Uh, debt-based community care.

Wow. Okay. That is gave me anxiety and not in a bad way. I think it's really special because I sit here and I think, you know, I'm so scared of death that like I can have a moment where I'm sitting here and I'll go, I can't imagine. It's really the after for me. It's not actually like the process of death. Like I'm not scared of the, you're dying. It's like what happens after that is sort of what freaks me out. Um, I'm just wondering, was your husband or spouse, whatever ex-husband, um, was he like afraid of dying pass I guess? Is that,

uh, he had a couple of remissions. He's, he's doing okay.

We were in the process of like, okay. Yeah, that's what I want to be clear. Okay. Okay. So, wow, that's just a lot. And you're young. Like I didn't realize you were so young when you like, when you email me and you're like, yeah, I've been doing this for this many years and blah, blah. And I was like, wow, you're 35, so you had to deal with this as young person. That's still, I mean, I feel like we're still developing all the time. Yes, I am. Oh yeah, absolutely. Well, and at that point I wasn't even 30, right. Twenties going, okay, I'm going to deal with her. Yeah. Just, um, okay, so explain to us, I guess the death positive community because this is something I had never heard of. So what exactly is that?

Well, it is a community that is structured around opening the dialogue related to death. There are some very common misconceptions about it, namely that we are somehow obsessed with death or that we are, um, I don't know, sort of an encouraging people to, you know, uh, approach death in a way that, you know, would, would maybe be different than they would otherwise. Um, it's not about telling people like, yo, death is the coolest shit. That's really not what it's about. It is

about recognizing that for many of us we were raised with attitudes surrounding death that made us very afraid. That left us with a lot of unresolved feelings that our environments told us. You can't talk about them. It's not okay. You just, you push it down and you don't think about it because it's, it's the worst thing ever. And we're kind of just hoping to open those dialogues even if that dialogue is to say, it scares the shit out of me and I don't want to think about it. That's valid. Right. Cause that's, that's still, it's almost like I'm being death positive or I'm like Talise you're talking about. Yeah. So, even though I can't stand the thought of it, I'm still talking about. So that's cool though, that you guys, did your family talk about it growing up or like what was your, and I didn't have anybody even think about it. I think what started was I okay. I hate like wakes when they're lying, their debt. I feel like that's what started, my grandma had cancer when I was a freshman in high school. And so I was older, like I was a little bit older where I could understand what was going on, but I also was still like, had never dealt with anybody dying before. I really hadn't never seen a dead body or anything like that. So when she died it was very, I don't know, it just, I don't know if it scarred me, I don't know if this is where it started, but it kind of is where it started. But seeing her laying there, it wasn't her. And I don't like remembering people like that. And I think that was the first and every grandparent's since then, like I've lost all my grandparents and they, and every time I'm like, I don't want to see you like this. I was raised Catholic. So of course like everything with Catholic you kneel in front of the, Ugh, I just hate it. But like did you ever talk to your family about even my, even at the wake or, no, and that's the thing. Like I, my mom knows my anxieties about like I am, I have a contract too. So they're like all kind of stems from the same thing. Like I don't want to die. So then like, but my mom like will say like, Bobby, everybody dies. Like, you know, that's the kind of things that we close off completely. But it's not like something we talk about in a positive. I remember like we go to funerals, my family was Catholic too, and we'd be had like the night before or the viewing we'd call it. And, but I remember her telling me like, that's just the body. Like that's not them anymore. Right. That's just their body. And I get that. I just think it's really creepy. Like that's like, yeah, really just to me it's like why are we dressing this painting, this person up to look like they were there. I mean I guess to look their alive sorta like makeup and all this shit and then you're like, but it's not them. So why are we, and I get it's for closure. I get it. Some people I don't like that. Like it doesn't sound like you got any closure out of it. No. And then there was a story with my mom, my mom, my mom actually didn't want to be in the room when her mom died and she ran to the basement and I guess the hospice nurse ran and got her and said, you're going to want to be here for this because you don't want to miss being there for her. And I think like I've never seen anybody die before. Right? Like I've never witnessed it before and it scares the hell out of me. But then I think I want someone to be there when I die. So how can I, that's where I'm trying to like get past this. Cause, I mean obviously my parents are getting older. Like I don't want them to like me be like, Oh I can't make it cause I don't want to go stand by them and watch them die. So that's kind of where I'm, that's my death I guess experience really is I just,

well, and what you're saying is something that in the years that I had been working in hospice care and death, positive care is so familiar. I mean, if there had to be a number one thing that people say it is that exact same thing. I'm so afraid to be alone. And just by saying that out loud, people I think kind of come to terms like this is a part of what will happen in my life. I have an idea of what I want from this and it's okay for me to want something from this. And that kind of opens, opens things up. So that's

very interesting. So hospice care, explain to those who don't know what hospice care is. Cause I'm sure there's people out there that don't know what that means or have very negative connotations about it. Yeah,

absolutely. Absolutely. Hospice care is very generally defined as care for people who are in longterm, uh, illness, care of some type, not necessarily in a separate facility. Very frequently people undergo hospice at home. It is not necessarily that, uh, their illnesses terminal, just that their illness is very, uh, consistently progressing downwards so they're not getting better. And that can take the form of anything from spending time with someone just talking with them, uh, checking in on them every so often. A lot of folks really appreciate having books read to them or music played for them all the way down to what we call visual care, which is when you actually spend time with someone who is actively dying. And I've, uh, had many roles along that spectrum in my time working there. I get to see that a lot. I worked at a nursing home for a little while and we would do essentially visual care. I mean you'd stay in the room with the person. I can't, I don't know. It was nice. It, it's a hard thing sometimes to wrap your head around. Absolutely.

Because it's like this is this last person's like their last moment of their life. And you're there. I mean, is there anything, like you say you talk to them, is there something that people say most often to you? Like I wish I would have insert,

it depends. I think a lot on health wise where they are, when things sort of get to that point, it is important to recognize that the sense of hearing is actually one of the last senses that people lose cognizance of. And so when we do spend time with people during vigil care, we are always talking to them, telling them that, you know, you're right there. They're not alone because sure, maybe they can't hear you, but maybe they can. Maybe it is a comfort, even if there are other awareness maybe isn't there, where we're there with them. And uh, it is very common to also, in those last couple of days, people will have visions. A lot of them are benevolent, a lot of them are family members. Uh, people see a lot of them.

Animals. I heard there's like a drug that gets released in your brain, like DMT or something like that. I actually was reading about today. It's some drug that releases, it's like a real big psychedelic, I think you can, I don't know if it comes from, I don't know. But your brain naturally makes it and apparently that happens when you're close to death. That kind of like kicks in and gives you this high sort of like a psychedelic almost out of body experience. So that's where, I mean, you know, you have science and you have faith and your religion and that's kind of where I sit and I'm like, well, you know, that's my fear is the after. Um, is, does anybody ever talk about that when they're, yeah, I mean, I'm sure that's something that'd be more like, Oh God, what's going to happen? Yeah.

And it's, it's a situation where you want to be very careful and compassionate because you want to be honest and you want to be fair and you want to be generous and kind. Uh, so I personally, without having any intimate knowledge of the afterlife, right. Would not feel comfortable saying like there is definitely a heaven. Uh, but I will be happy to read scripture. I will be happy to provide them with whether whatever type of support felt good for them in their life that may feel good for them now. Um, I will absolutely listen to them. I hear a lot of people talk about bright lights, they talk about, um, bodies of water and things like that. And so, you know, in those last few hours or days, you are really opening yourself up to basically bearing witness to their experience and being there for them frequently being present for something that the families themselves are struggling with. And there's nothing wrong with being unsure of whether or not you want to be there for that. This is your family member, you know, it's completely understandable. Um, sometimes people are just sort of finding what they'll be okay with.

I want to be, I want to be there for my family. I mean, I want to be there for my family. I really do. Um, but we won't be, it'll be in the basement. I couldn't get a flight. No, I'm just kidding. Um, I just, that's something I'm working through and that's something that I guess hopefully talking about it more will help me get past my fear of it. Have you talked to your parents about that? No. Okay. We really don't talk. I mean like we really should talk like, Oh, I know like my dad, he wants cremated. We've talked about the actual after process. Like he wants cremated. I'm supposed to take him to Hawaii and like spring around all these places. So like that's such an incredibly awkward conversation.

You're just hanging out like having a couple of drinks. Like, so by the way, when you die, how are we gonna run this party?

I was going to ask you that. How do you start that conversation? Because it sounds like a lot of us don't have it. I mean, maybe as a culture we don't either. We avoid it. So how do we like just start with that and say, Hey mom, Hey dad or Hey friend.

Yeah, there is definitely a degree of awkwardness for the vast majority of people. That is completely understandable. Um, many people do not already have a plan. And I'm like, gosh, I'm really glad that you talked about that. Here is my list of very explicitly requests for my funeral. Uh, but I have found that one way to very gently broach that subject is to just say, Hey, you know, I was going over some paperwork and stuff. I was sort of getting, you know, some boring legal documentation, whatever in line. And I realized that it might be a good idea to set up some advanced directives or you know, just kinda have some things in line just in case or, you know, I realized that I don't know where all of your documents are or you should know where my documents are just in case. Yeah. And that is a slightly less intimidating way to broach that topic rather than being like, yo, do you just want to talk about that?

Right, right. I would probably just be like, Hey, so, you know, I'm scared of dying, but I need to know what you want to do. And then I'll, cause I don't know what I want. I mean, I do and I don't, I don't know. I just try. I'd avoid it. I read it. I read a book called the denial of death and I don't remember who it's for, who it's by, but it's really, it's one of those things that it makes you really think because the whole human race, everything about us, it's like Sigman and for whatever Sigmund Freud, that kind of shit. And it makes you think though how like the whole human race, our whole entire lives are spent trying to avoid death and denying death. Even like with religion, with our jobs, with our humor, with a podcast, you're just denying the fact that this will ever end. And it's almost like you're trying to create your legacy forever. And that's why people do these kinds of things. And so after I read that book, that's what started really sort of scaring me, but also like maybe I don't have to be so afraid of, cause this is just like the human race. Like this is what we do. Like this is what it is. Like there's, there's no explanation for it, you know? I'm one of those people that I need like an answer and I'm not getting one with this and I won't get one until it's done. So that's where it's like,

Oh no. And that is, again, it's a very common thing because the fear of the unknown is such a huge presence. And uh, that's where a lot of it comes from. I know people who are like, look, I don't care where I go, I don't care what happens. I just want to know that there is

something. Correct. Yeah, same. Yeah. I would love that. We'll never have certainty here. Nope. Until we're there

and then you can't tell anybody about it. And it's like, well, Hey,

I believe in, um, any kind of afterlife. Is that something that, Oh, sorry. Anything like it could be like religious wise or like spirits or ghosts or like, I don't know. So

it's interesting. Um, I am actually a biologist and so when I was much younger I was very hard line, just like, no, there is nothing. And as I've gotten older, I have softened on that stance a little bit. That has sort of shifted to, I'm not really sure. And that's probably fine. Uh, there are certainly some things in terms of, I don't know, 100% where, you know, all the energy shakes out for things. There is definitely weird shit that's happened in my life that I do not have explanations for. Could be ghost, could be farts, who knows. Right. You know what I mean? Probably farts. But like in this household, um, and so it is sort of a, and I hate to give you a hand-wavy answer and I'm sorry about that, but uh, there is sort of some comfort and being like, I've got no fucking idea. Right,

sir. Cause I mean you again, you're around it more than I am. So for you to be able to say, I still won't fucking, I mean obviously nobody knows until they're not there, but like just, I was curious about your personal thoughts on that. Um, yeah. So you mentioned your email about LGBT death wishes or I or something.

Yes. Yeah. It's like the morbid hour. Thank you for having me on to make everybody's sad.

One of the programs that the cofounder of, uh, the death cafe that I helped run, worked on with me was to actually put together a legal clinic for LGBTQA folks, um, to help put together things like pre-need plans and basically give them a little bit of an idea of what they might be facing with regard to getting legal documents lined up. And as I'm sure a lot of people are well aware that we don't have the same protections that a lot of people have, which means depending on where you live, your wishes may or may not inherently be respected by legalities in those areas. Um, and so we hosted a workshop with a wonderful law firm in town who said, yeah, absolutely we would love to be part of this. We'd like to help you out. Uh, giving the one-on-ones on like, alright, here's how you specify who gets what property. Here's how you specify who has control of things like your social media accounts, which nobody fucking thinks of. Um, delete everything.

Yeah, right. Just like the new kid light. The last time I heard of it bury it all far, far. I was just like, nobody gets to see Bobby's social media. Those messages from 2006 delivery boy the things you've searched. Oh goodness.

But uh, just sort of the interesting little aspects that I think a lot of people don't have to think about because they are protected in many ways. You know, what do you do when you need to specify? Like these are the pronouns that I need you to use in my eulogy. Uh,

stuff like that. Don't even think of us as our privilege. We never think about that. Yeah. This is definitely like that's, I bet you, I never, I have no idea. Oh, that either. Oh no, I've never thought about that. You mentioned death cafe. Have we taught, I don't think we mentioned that yet. Have we? And when we did it of positive, but what is the death cafe? Kind of interesting. I'm trying to imagine. I'm trying to picture here at welcome to the death category. We gasp before you tell us. Like, is it like you walk in and serve drinks in a skull? That's what I think too. Like walking in and just, yeah, like a little bit of smoke. Like as you open the door, a smile comes on, smell like a party at my house. Right? Yeah. This family and we're gonna be there. We're there. We're there.

Um, death case death cafes have actually a long and fascinating history that is tied to Columbus. Oh. Uh, they started in the United Kingdom as a community organization where people would get together, drink tea, have some snacks, and generally talk about the idea of mortality. Generally talk about, and we're talking, you know, very broad questions. Like what kind of legacy do you think that you would like to leave? Or is there any experience that you've had related to death that had a really big impact on you? Why do you think that was? And it sort of, uh, gently introducing this concept of death, not in a hard hitting. Tell me your fears related to your mortality and then we're going to awkwardly stand at you in the middle of a circle of chairs. Um, but to open up those lines of communication a little bit. So started in the United Kingdom. It now runs all over the world. And the first one I believe in North America, please forgive me if I get this wrong, was actually started in Columbus by someone named Lizzy miles who is actually currently still running them. So is there one here right now? Like there is, Oh my God, we're going, it is at the Wexner center for the arts on I believe November 17 perhaps 20th. Oh my gosh. We're going, we're going. Do I have to talk? You do not have to talk. This is one of the wonderful things about death cafes is that you are not obligated to interact in any way that does not feel comfortable for you. We absolutely have had folks who have come and not said a thing, um, have not even put on name tags, have not eaten any snacks, which is a shame cause the snacks are really good. Uh, but they perhaps will show up once and they would listen and then they would leave. We'd never see them again. And that's cool because we're here for those people just as much as we are for the people who come in and are like, I got shit, I gotta talk about.

Yeah. Hand me the popcorn. Yeah. Here I go. Yeah. Wow. We're going, we're going like I want to go really bad. I do too because I feel like it'd be something good for me. And how many people usually go to these? Like isn't it once a month or is it like something that just

pops up randomly? Most people do them once a month. Okay. Um, I know that for while there in Columbus, we had a few that were rotating and so like if you really wanted to hit the death cafe circuit, you could really kind of make a social life out of it. But, um, for the most part, a lot of organizations that I'm familiar with try to do it roughly about once month.

This is so fascinating to me. I'm sorry. I'm like wrapping my head around the whole idea of it. Like, it's wild too because it's like all you were doing is talking. Right, right. Even a big thing. Yeah. What is your legacy or what, I mean you can get up there and just like listen and, or just listen to people talk about it. And, and do you, do you think people go there, I guess like people like me who are a little bit nervous, but do you think people who are actively dying go,

there have been people who have been actively dying and that is a very unique experience because they are experiencing this for the first time. And so they are sort of going through this and able to lend a little bit of insight at the same time that the rest of us are also sort of learning these other things for the first time. And yeah, it's um, we've been very lucky to have people who have come in, shared their experience and said, you know, I'm, I am actively dying. This is the gift that I wished to share right now is to tell you what this is like from where I am. So

this will be good for you, Bobby. I think it would, I think it's good. It's weird. Like I did a talking to people just around in general, just even asked the waiter yesterday at breakfast like, are you scared to die? A lot of people aren't. And I was actually so I'm not, I was really surprised cause I, you asked me, I'm like, yes, I'm scared to die. Like yes, obviously we know this now, but a lot of people aren't. And I find that very fascinating. I don't know, I feel, I feel like more people would be, are they denying it or you know, I guess, I don't know. That's just something that blows my mind too is like a lot of people aren't scared to die.

Yeah. One thing that I've encountered with my own life and my own social group is that a lot of us, you know, the gutter punk kids and you know, we struggled a lot when we were younger. Many of us didn't. And I'm sorry, I'm going to get morbid here for a sec. Many of us didn't think we would live as long as we did. And so to be where we are in our lives, it's just like fuck it. Bonus round. We didn't think we'd get here. Uh, and so that does change your perception of it when you've always figured that this would have happened earlier. Now you're like, all right, well

that's such a good way to look at it. Like, and that's how I've, I start like as I'm getting older, I'm like, anytime, somewhere like, ah, where was, I don't know. In Montreal we're walking around and I'm like, I need to really take this in because I don't know if this is the last time I'm going to see this. Nobody knows ever. Right. But like I just, I've been really focused on just being present in that moment and enjoying that moment because you really don't know. You could walk across the street and get slammed by a boss and that's it. Yeah. I'm so more than that, I'm just so awkward at this. God slaved by a bus, you get hit by a bus and that's it. Um, I'm trying to think of what else to ask you cause I feel like there's so much stuff that I want to talk about. Is there anything that you have right now as far as,

well maybe I was thinking, uh, as someone like in hospice care, what do you think about like physician assisted suicide? Oh yeah, that's one thing.

That's a great question. I think one of the things that makes the idea of death such a scary thing for so many people is the loss of control people. And, and you said that you were, uh, working in a, in a senior care facility as well. So you might have also witnessed this, that the loss of autonomy that folks who are in those care facilities have a lot of their choices taken away from them. They don't get to pick when they eat, they don't get to pick what they eat. They don't sometimes get to pick what clothes they wear. It's, it's a very difficult experience. And I think the idea of, um, assisted end of life is very appealing because it is that vestige of I can have this choice, this very, very important choice. Um, and they can decide when they are ready rather than sort of languishing and you know, potentially leaving at a point where they're not able to interact with their loved ones the way that they wanted to. Yeah. So there's this documentary called how to die in Oregon.

You watched it, you have listen as a Frito death's shot. There's another one in HBO now or show time now that's another one that's like, I can't believe you've watched that. Like they show the person taking the pill

[inaudible] the second all. Yeah. Nobody, it's such a good documentary because it's talking to these people and that's what it is about is this issue of control. And it's like, I know this is coming. I know one night I'm going to go to sleep and I'm not going to wake up. I'm in pain all the time. Like some of the people on it.

Right. Or they're like actively dying and they're like, I don't want to get to the point where I'm in so much pain that I can't do anything. I can't, you know,

that control and you can say it's time.

I just can't imagine taking that. I know you, the actual one would be like, okay, like I'm gonna wish I had to watch this, but I that one pill I'd be like, Oh my God, I need to be really fucked up. I'm sorry. I'm gonna have to be like fucked up and then be like, okay, now I'm ready to take the pill. That's so sad. But that's, Oh well maybe let's get hit by a bus and you want to worry about taking it away. But then I'll be watching every bus now. Like it's just as bad. Um, I have some more questions. Um, how do you explain death to children? Yeah, I've been wondering about that. Yeah, that's a great question.

I absolutely think that death is something that kids need to know about. I also think kids are able to understand and comprehend that idea way earlier than a lot of people give them credit for. Um, and it doesn't have to be gory. It doesn't have to be, you know, really super nitty gritty. But I do think it's fair to say, you know, you're your Prague or you know, your, your family member or grandpa or you know, even the leaves that are on the tree, they live for awhile and then sometimes their body can't work anymore and then they don't live anymore. And that's just kind of part of how everything works. And then, you know, their bodies go back to the earth and then something new. What was born, something new.

Not to bring it back to me, but I just remembered something cause you asked me about my childhood and like death, you have a pet die ever. Yes. Okay. Oh and I denied it. I was like, I mean that's the first time I ever heard my dad cry. He was like Bobby at the bottom of stairs. I was like, Oh God, what's going on? And um, cause my sister and my, my mom had just left to go to the beach and I was like, Oh God, something you know has happened well as our dog, the hip dysplasia. And he's like, I gotta take her, I gotta take her. Do you want to go? And I said no, and I regret that actually sort of, um, cause I should have been there for him. But this makes sense now. Like even the dog, like even the dog, I was like, Nope, I can't do this. I'm not, I'm pretending like this is not happening by, yeah. And I like shut off and then I like go cry later. Like I'm always, and that's my role usually at funerals too is like I don't cry at all. Nope. I don't acknowledge it. Well I did at my grandma's funeral, but like I'm the hard shell at first. I'm like, well it's okay, we got to get up. They're like, we got and that's me just deflecting the fact that it's actually happening. I feel like that role is important sometimes, but at the same time like it's not really healthy. I feel like for me because then later on I'm like, did I really have to not, I should have taken it in and like really grieved. I guess you just delayed it. Yeah. But that's interesting because that animal thing, I was like, that didn't like, I was like, I don't really, you can take the dog to be put to sleep. I'm not dealing with it. And that brings up some, some

great points, uh, that because many kids, their first experience with death is the death of a pet. Those, um, unfortunately are not always something that you know about beforehand. They can sometimes be very traumatic, is a really difficult way to introduce kids into that concept with something that can be very violent and very, very scary. And it's just like, all right, do we kind of act like this isn't happening or do we just go bore into this? How do we really handle this? It's, it's a tough choice. Um, and I think, you know, every kid is different so you kind of have to take them on a case by case basis. Also, everyone grieves differently, right? And sometimes to preserve yourself and to keep the strength that you're going to need to process through things, sometimes you do have to shut down. Um, in the grief that I was dealing with, with, you know, severe, severe illnesses. I mean I just, you just shut down and become a robot sometimes because that's what you gotta do to get from day to day. And while it's not always the most beneficial over the long term, sometimes it's what you need to do to get yourself to a place where you really can feel everything that's happened. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't be too hard on him.

No. And I'm not, I mean I know that this is all like a growing and learning process in life in general is just all one big cluster fuck of learning. Um, but so okay I'm going to switch it up again cause I'm, all my questions are just hitting me all at once. So what do you say to somebody who is denying the fact that let's say somebody gets stage four cancer diagnosis and they need to go on hospice. Is there, have you ever been a part of conversations with families? Like this is what really needs to happen? Like you need to go on hospice care and if they're denying that it's really happening, how do you talk them into no, like acknowledging the fact that they're dying. I mean, is that something that you've had to deal with or is that, do you have anything to say about that?

There are definitely degrees of denial and it changes depending on the individual. Certainly one important thing to note is that we can certainly recommend certain types of care, but we are not the decision makers. So, um, if there is a family and they are just absolutely hell bent, like no way, this isn't necessary, as heartbreaking as that can be because we know that person and we know what they're very likely experiencing unless that permission is given by the family. We really can't do some of these measures. And I think also people don't realize the wide variety of services that hospice provides, including some times sitting with the family themselves or providing bereavement care or companion and care, you know, coming in and cleaning things up around the house. Um, but some people even then are just so far in denial that they really genuinely think that nothing is going to change. Oh, sorry. Oh, sorry. I just knocked over.

Cause I feel like a lot of people are in denial. Like I F I feel like that's why when I asked the question, are you scared to die? No, I'm not. You just like close your eyes and it's dark. But if it's really to the point of it, like if you really knew that you were gonna die, like I want to know. I mean, I guess everybody's probably scared. I don't know, cause I'm gonna be the ones like, no, I'm fine. It's fine. And you're having a panic attack inside. Right. And then, um, I, you know, Oh, Bobby knew on hospice, I'd be like, no, no, no. Like, um, I don't want to be that person. I guess I wanna you would love it. You could add a van and calm down.

True. Just hook me up. I have anxiety. Well, and people absolutely change their mind, including people who are actively dying. There have certainly been people who I have come in to just check because I asked permission every time when I would go to visit someone and I had been turned away by people going, I'm not sick. I don't need you here. I don't want you here. And you go, okay, I'm sorry to have bothered you. And then sometimes, not always, but sometimes you know, you get a phone call a little later and said, Oh, are you going to be around soon? Would you actually mind stopping by? Sometimes people change their minds. Sometimes they don't though. And no matter what, we have to respect it because much like every life is unique and this is super cheesy and I'm really sorry. Uh, every death is unique. Every death has really its own little thing. Um, and so we have to respect that for whatever form that takes. My God,

so you would turn her away? I'd be like, listen, no, no, no, nah. She's like, here. I'm like, no, no, no. Like it's wrong round. Then I'll be the one that texts. Oh, okay, fine. Just like, just come back. Just, yeah,

chat. It's fine. It's, I've had some wonderful experiences with people who at first were just like, I wanted you to leave. I did not want you near me. And then when I'm like, okay, well you know, I can, if you would like me to bring snacks or you know, music to listen to you. And they're like, yo, you got snacks.

Yeah. Well then come over. Can we order stuff Chris? Pizza hut. Fine. Okay. Yes. Your hair. Um, what is one thing that you would say

to somebody? Could be you scared of dying?

Is that a deep question that we've been kind of going over but like I'm trying to figure out like a way to like what do you tell someone tie this into a bow. What do you on hospice maybe who's worried and expresses that? Like I've nervous.

I would say that pretty much everyone is nervous and it's okay to feel that way. I know that sounds very, you know, we will sort of, you know, floating up in the air but like it's okay. Sometimes people just need to be told that it's okay to be terrified by this, to not know what's happening. Um, and just say, you know, I get it. I understand there's a lot out there that we're not sure about, but I'm here for you. If you want to talk, I'll be happy to listen. If you can think of something that might help, we can try it and I'm happy to do that, but you're not going through this alone.

That's probably the biggest, yeah, and I'll say this in closing, I feel like just sitting here talking about it actually has made me more calm in a weird way. Calm. Yeah. Like you bring it up, you're like, like I froze. I was very anxious. I was like, Oh, I don't want to talk about this really weird. Here we go. Like, yeah, I got anxious at four o'clock. I was like, Oh my God, I really don't want to talk about this. But now that I'm actually talking about it, it's sort of sure I'm still scared and sure I'm still going to battle with, I'll probably lay in a bed tiny like Oh my gosh. But I do feel like talking about it and like the death positive movement slash community really would be beneficial for maybe somebody like me and who's scared and maybe just talking about it regularly won't make it so scary. I don't know. We're going to go, we're going, we will report back. Like we are definitely going to do like a post bonus episode of the death cafe. Maybe they interview like or I don't know. I guess we won't. We'll see. We'll see. I'm very excited to hear about this. Do you have anything you want to plug other than death? Like a, do you have anything

like your Twitter or do you want us to like put your links up or my Twitter, Twitter, Twitter, right. Uh, is is just like my cats and, and would ridiculous, goofy shit that I get up to. It is of absolutely no academic or spirit. Okay. All right. So she's like, Nope, I'll just see ya when ya on your own and your death bed. So right. Just call me up. Hang out me away. Don't kick me out of your room. Piece of snacks. I'll have snacks. The best ones. Bobby's like done. I'm in. Wait, I thought you were just going to hang out. I'm not in hospice like I just wanted snacks anyway. I appreciate you stopping by and talking. We definitely might continue this. I might have like a death panel. Maybe you can be on the panel with another person. It's like awful. Obamacare was coming out. Perhaps we changed the name. I've done hair phone away. We're like invented to scare people. Oh yeah. Maybe not death panel. The gel. Obamacare is gonna make a death panel and you're going to be told you're going to die and then we're going to[inaudible] not that. Sorry. A death group. Death positive panel. Oh wow. Oh wait.

Death positive group group. That's it. Thank you so much. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Tracy. Santoz Santos for coming in and explaining some of the things about death and answering my dumb questions. I mean, a lot of the times I'll have really nervous at the beginning. She's so nice. She would have, she would say right now, like those were not dumb questions. No. She would be like, no, that's actually perfectly normal. I'm like, Oh, I'm not weird. No, you thought you were special, but you're not. Yeah. She's like, no, you're actually like right on par. I'm like, no. Right, but we want to thank her very much for coming. We will. Very informative. She didn't have any links for us. You knew.

She's like, I'll see you at your death. Bad bitch. I'm like, okay, but we will be going to a death positive. Ah, cafe. A death cafe. That's right. I move. We'll report back obviously to everybody about that, but weeks, I can't wait a couple of weeks. I might speak. It might be my first speaking engagement since I started this high. Um, they were like, we don't want you to talk. I'm like, I'm Bobby and I'm on a podcast or please sit down like we heard it. This fucker's here. No, no, no, no, no, no. You came last month than we had kicked you out. Now we have to kick you out again. Kicking me out, bitch. I'm on kickball and common. Um, I wanted to mention to uh, our listeners, if you go to, she's not doing swell.com we actually have a new update and we have a blog now and we had some additional questions for tryna wind tour that are uh, that have been asked and answered. So that'll be going up. Uh, or it might be up already. I don't know. When you hear this episode, um, check out our shit. Check it out at us. Subscribe. Please subscribe. Stalk us. We have a new um, logo cause I am not logo. The pilots are indecisive. No, the pineapple is still there, but I got us a little more fun. Like you can kind of get a personality cause people who are just looking through things, they're gonna be like, what's a pineapple? Skip. I got some good advice from my 20 year old cousin. You need a millennial. She's like, but like what is the pineapple? And I was like, ah, there was like a thing. She goes, but like I just, it looks like clip art. I'm like, well it is cause that's what it's called as clip art. Like what do you mean? Do you take a real picture of a pineapple? Like what do you want me to do? It's called a drawing. That's what Copart is. I just, I don't know. And then, yeah, so and then I was told is annoying on Instagram, but I don't fucking care. Guess what bitch boy, my little videos, I'm like, you know what? I'm just trying to connect with people. Thank you. I watched those all the time. Thank you. I mean, you know what? You know what? It's good advice from people you love. You got to listen sometimes. And I listened and we'll see some things. You gotta listen to some things you didn't like and then you ignore it. Right. I'm listening right now. I feel like I'm growing. Everything's growing. Oh. Including me and size weight. And height, not height. I'm wanting shorter things growing. But anyway, please go to our website. You can actually, you can actually join and subscribe and then they'll get updates automatically. Yeah. And they'll also get like exclusive content. Um, I was just imagining, I don't know how extensive it pictures that you have in need. Find me on my own. My only fans, uh, page. Um, is that what it's called? Um, yeah. It's like only, only families. Yeah. You would know. You probably subscribed to like, no, I haven't. I'm not into it. Oh, why don't you see a deck? It's done. Like, I, once I see him, like, I liked the allure, like, Oh, maybe what I don't, that's just me. I like new and fresh and like, let's keep it rolling, bitch. But anyway, this has been another episode of she's not doing swell. I'm the most unconfident, crazy person, Bobby, and I'm a thick Herriot or Jim. Thank you for coming and listening to us. Once again. We're sorry. Sorry. Bye. It's boom. Bots are gonna play. Oh yeah, I'll play football on the exit. Yay. Okay. Bye.[inaudible]

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gold rise is pretty light.

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