We're A lot More Alike Than We Are Different (Being Black & Being Gay)

spk_0:   0:00
welcome to she's not doing so well. It's a pot. I'm Bobby non faction. You're free to come. Tongue is my comings in my throat and I try to limit the box to 10. Love it, honey, I'm just so awkward at this. God. Hello, everybody. And welcome to she's not doing so well. I'm Bobby. I'm Jim. Thank you for coming back and thank you. Told our new listeners I think we have quite a few after that daddy episode Daddy ever said started it. Then we went to slap Saturday. Fun day. I must just said Sunday. Yeah, Sunday. Fun Day was also fun. It was fun and informative and informative and interesting. We could be more organized, and I admit that I could have been organizing. We've all talked about it already. So we have. I haven't You have haven't gone to trash you about that. We'll go and trash me then, bitch. You need to be more organized. I mean, it's true. Like I wanted to be random for everybody, but the realities as the hose that people don't want it to be rant like we need to know what's going on right? And even give them a pretty like we're gonna talk about like, this is the topic in general. And then we're gonna ask questions about it, right? Because otherwise I was like, let's talk about what Something the government should make illegal. They're like, what? We just talked about being our five year old self and sing your vagina and they're like, right, one of those that would be hall are That was a strange thing. It would be honestly, to see your body is now as a five year old. Yikes. Mind trip. Um, so you're fresh off a flight, honey, Right off that airplane I got back from Music City. I think it's called that there. Nashville. Oh, yeah, it's still there They are Nashville. Proud or strong. Not sure what the phrases, but yeah, the tornadoes kind of hit any. I didn't because I was in a part of downtown that wasn't hit, but, like right near downtown Waas. Definitely damaged. And then my sister said she's on the east side, also damaged like she was driving around you notice it and it's just that I think the people in the city are coming together. Even when I went to lunch. Um, on Friday I went to this place called The Green Pheasant. It's like a Japanese style place was really good. Trucker. You and Japanese know why so but, like the bartender was telling me about some of the damage she seen, and then a person down the bar was like, Hey, if you know anyone in the service industry who needs help, I can get them $1600 in their pocket within a day. Like anyone like it's not. There's no, you know, there's no interest. I will just get them the cash, help them rebuild, and then they can pay about one thing. Yeah, and it was just like she just heard the bartender talking to me. So it wasn't She wasn't even involved. Wow. So like everyone in the city, I think just thinking about it, they're all trying to help. It's a lot. It's a lot of people. I mean, over 20 people were killed like it's scary. Yeah, that came in the middle of night, and a lot of people didn't hear the sirens. He alerts like everyone was asleep. Most people were asleep, so well, I'm a psychopath because I texted your sister who's down there right now. That's why you were there, right? Right. So I texted her ass, and I was like, Are you alive? And now she's like, Yeah, I am good. I was like, Oh, my gosh, she was really sweet. But I was like, Sorry. I know. Look, I don't know. She didn't lose her phone. I'm not even a part of your family like Harry. I'm like I had a number from when we talked to her on realize I was like, Hey, you know, Are you safe? Oh, my God. That was back in season one. I forgot. Uh, So anyway, I'm glad to hear that you had a good time. Yeah, National, but it's finally everyone was still in a celebratory mood. There were tons of batch and bachelorette party says I mean little pedal carts. The Pel cuts are everywhere, and everyone's just scream. I didn't want Why do you want to scream? I don't I don't know. Like I want to do work while I'm drinking, right? No, like, let's just go in a Let's go to a bar. It Let's just walk to the next bar while you just sit on a fucking stool thing. And then they all get off the thing they go to. It's like, No, I don't I don't get it. I do not get it. I don't get it. I mean, sorry. I know there's some bachelorettes out there that probably have done this. I'm going to one in August. I hope it ought to do it, but it probably will. You'll have grown, and you will have to e. That's true at that point. And you might have it now because I just got off a plane and I could have as I know, I gotta watch out the next 14 days. If I get sick, I'm gonna get tested. And then you don't have to be quarantined. And then you might have it right now, too. I know. I feel like a cross today. You got it. You got it Through the phone or something. Everybody's gonna get it through their phones. That's true. You know that. You're gonna touch him. When do you How often do you clean your phone? Seriously, like that? Never right? Nobody ever does. It's dirtier than a toilet. See? Like for disgusting. I need to get wipes. Yeah, we need wipes. Goodness is gonna stress me out. You're still I know more, more people are getting it. It's coming well. And then a good thing that I joined the fucking gym. That's fun. You're gonna get in there and I'm gonna get out of there like every machine you're like. The steam room is just putting out like Corona. I thought that I was like, I really got the semen bills. Like, I feel like if there's one person there that coughs and has it, that's enough lele articles for days, days, and it's just a corona sprout sprout. I don't know why I was trying to say the Corona. What's that thing? That and guys there. Yeah. Okay. What else? The guy's air last steam sprout. I'm not sure I'm making the team sprout. Thank you. Made that. I know, Um, but that's on. Are you rock climbing now? I love this. You climb a rock. First of all, I cannot rock on me. When I was in shape, I was, like, just awkward for me. I felt like I was gonna fall backwards, which is I did some of that this weekend because our Airbnb had a rock wall in it and I was like, No, Yeah, I was I was rock climbing. I went like, halfway up in panic and wrong I'm gonna fall backwards like we just went out for the night. Let's go on the rock wall we did. It was like 9 p.m. I was like, Let's do the rock wall. I don't know why, but we shot Let's get weird and let the rock all weird in gnashing Nash. Oh goodness. So I'm gonna do the gym. That's good. I'm pleasure Company pays you so it's worth it is worth. And it's time. Like I feel like it's time. It's your time. And Michael's been going for a while, and I'm starting to notice results on him a little bit. Really? Yeah, and I want it was the other night. I was like, Oh, you're looking like kind of thinner. And he's like, Really? And he started getting rough. Wow, I'm like, you know what? I got to stuff up my put pussy that I don't have those mean both. See my bus. See, you do need to step up your Busey. I do it so I'm like, you know, Why? Doing a go in life time, Life time. Fitness, honey. People gonna come up too, and be like I heard you on the radio. I heard you, like on this podcast. Yeah. OK, lady, let me exercise in peace. Intranet is exercise like God. This is why I've gotta move in California. These amateurs You could go for a little jogs on the Venice Beach boardwalk, which you're not running. You're running for your life. You're running fast. You're running for your life way. Just sound like two fucking assholes. But sorry. Sorry. Not sorry. Sorry. Not fucking Sorry. So also this weekend What, not to take over the conversation went a hump festival. I'm so jealous. It actually is pretty good. So where is it and what is it? So I thought I was like, a real festival. Yeah, it's a movie. You might want to call the hump movie. You're going to see a movie? Yeah. Yeah. So you go there, you're sitting in, like, the seats for the movie. Oh, drink beer at the one of the places here. So you're just sitting there and it started and I was like, Oh, this is like a legitimate. I thought she wasn't coming with Mike. Welcome to hump like right? Like introducing. Sort of. Yeah, it was like, it's Dan Savage, which there's a lot of opinions about him. I'm not gonna go there. Um, you know, But it wasn't really actually for takeaway. Dan Savage. Yeah, the actual event. You basically sit in a room with all your best friends and watch porn, and it's like it's, like submitted porn by other people. So, like people amateur, amateur, but, like, they try to make it look, I don't know how to describe. It's just different. Different stuff that you wouldn't normally see. So what did you see? What was one that was memorable? One that was memorable actually, was this couple the guy was hot Shocker. That's all there is to actually. But with one, they were doing the shocker. So it's been 15 years. It was a 15 year anniversary of hump, so they were like going back in time of the best, the best in show. There are calling the best of the year, and we're gonna try to recreate so they're like laying in bed. They're like, Well, we could always try and then they would go into it. It was so funny because they're like normal people, like it's all normal people. That's the thing I like about it. It's like, I mean, most guys have pretty big dicks because I don't feel like you're gonna be on there if you don't have a big dick. During a video that was shown on screen seems to be true. But also think about the Montreal stripper right there's very normal. It was very just like it wasn't like regular poor words like, Oh, here's a rock hard body and a huge dick and the girls leonine and like everybody on the girl's high with fake tits and a tight little I must said the worst thing. Oh, the word. Oh my God. Well, let them imagine what you would have said. That tight little blank sent me a message with the real one. I'll send Yushin swag bitchy. Yeah s Oh, it was just cool, though, because it was a little like a mature people who are normal and regular bodied. And I like that. Yeah, it was very cool. Yeah, body positive. I saw a lot of vagina and a lot of deck. Well, they're assholes in betweens, all of it. So it's very good. Like I recommend it so again if you it's traveling the country like it just travels. I guess it was pro tested in somewhere. They didn't get to show it. Wow. Against something. Moms against fun. Who are these moms? Like sisters. A mom. And I'm like she would never march in front of this thing. She was a time. I know our mom's busy. What? Mom is the one time around. It doesn't make sense to the moms. I have free time. Yeah. What freedom are you having? Mom? She can't. She can't even facetime me for more than like, no. Can you imagine being a mom and having to take a shower like you have a little kid? I can't even sit up. Can you imagine having three kids and having to take a ship? Be like, ever? You watch your little brother and the baby, The baby's gonna cry. And then the baby. Yeah, you imagine? No, I don't want to know. I don't either. That makes me the next time you're sitting in the bathroom for half. And I remember that horrifying moms shot out Mom, because all I do is sit on Instagram and you're to the air basically trying to take the fastest shit of your life. So every time we really appreciate all the moms out there in its National Women's Day today, so it is international or international. I said National. Try to limit it. Yeah. No, I wasn't limiting it. I mean, it's pretty bad that it's on the shortest day of the year. I don't want a man explain to you, but it's International Women's Day International Man. Mansplaining day Oh! Oh, my God! Wow! Uh, wow. Wow. So happy International Women's Day to all the fine ladies in your life Wow! And in the world, yeah, off mom's all the moms and sisters this citizen brands all of it all of that and whatever kind of a woman you are. That's right. Thank you. So also, also this episode, this episode goes deep, gets deep, it gets real d we want to be kind of silly at first. It doesn't get is not bad deep. Oh, no. It was like the really good conversations and the really good conversations that you should have with all your friends of color or you are different than you, including, you know, maybe anybody. Trans. These are the kind of thing. This is the kind of conversation that I envisioned when I started the podcast. Honestly, I know. That's why I kept thinking I was talking. It was like, This is it Wow, Me too. So I want to hear the truth regardless of I don't know cause I was a terrorist like Yeah, and they knew it. They're like I know Well, we all were. Eric was like, Listen, this is your fine. There's a safe space like ask whatever questions want to it. So we started losing up. It would mean we recorded for almost two hours, so I know. But that's what I was saying. Like I remember recording. I was like, Well, it's hard to have these conversations when you're in a bar or like when you're, you know, like you want people to be aware that you're thinking about it like I'm you want to meet them where they are. But it's also like when there's loud music and people have been drinking and you have your little friend group and they have their clique and it's like, Do I? How do we bridge the gap? I think you'll like, set up session, almost like on a stick Saturday It was just talk. You want it to happen organically, but I don't think it always does. Maybe it doesn't need Thio, right? And I'm almost thinking, like, maybe it does need to be a set where you sit down Because after that conversation all week long, I've been thinking about it, Yeah, all week long, about just the simple things that and I will say this like, there's I'm not gonna give away the whole interview. But there was a part where Brandon said, um, that he cares his receipt when he walks out of the grocery store. And I cannot stop thinking about that because the reason why he does it because he thinks that if first of all, someone might think he's just feeling is taking the things. Yeah, but if, like, the alarm goes off, so he always wants them to know that he bought this shit and here's my receipt. And meanwhile, I'm just walking out. I threw out my receipt already. I don't even get one. Yeah, like now I don't need one. Yeah, and I really put me into check. Yeah, it's like, Wow. Yeah, Like little. You'll notice that one. Now that you're thinking about it, you're gonna notice little things. You're every day. You're gonna be like, Oh, wait a second. Now, just this is so different for me because I'm a white guy, right? So it really makes you not appreciate, but just sort of, like, take into account all the things that people are going through, sort of, And it makes you sort of realize how lucky you could be in your situation. And you shouldn't take advantage of that, eh? But be you should also help uplift others. If you're in that I went Wow. Eliminate the privilege. Right. So that's what we're gonna do. Some of the titles black and gay is basically what I was saying the whole time. Um, like all the intersections. Yeah. Yeah. Explain that. Well, because I was trying to intersection now, Lenny. Yeah, I think it's just the idea is you're looking at things from I would say, different angles. So you're not just like, pigeonholing someone into Okay, Well, you're black and gay Now. Tell us about that experience and describe it, how it is for everyone who's black and gay you're looking at, like maybe class education level, even like religious background. I mean, there's just so many different intersections that you can dissect, and they said, talk about Yeah. So that's what we kind of tried to see how they inform each other, right? So we did. I think we did a great job of that. Yeah, I really again. I really enjoyed the conversation with guys, and we really appreciate it. Um, So what we're gonna do is going to a little commercial break, and then we come back from the commercial, will play the audio. This episode is brought to you by iPod corn. Have you seen popcorn? The popcorn? No popcorn. It's a marketplace connecting podcasters to amazing podcast sponsorship opportunities such as host read ads, interview segments, topical discussions and Maur. Oh, so it eliminates the middleman. Yes. And you never give up any rights to your podcast. And your podcast is great support. Wow. It sounds like there's a lot of transparency, creative freedom and full control of how you monetize exactly. Check out our show links to sign up to popcorn and start browsing sponsorship opportunities today. So I want to talk about being black, but also being jump right into it. I don't know if that's a we're gonna talk about why we're here. I want to listen a lot because I don't do questions very well. Year, You have questions you can ask. What? This is a safe space. E am kind of guy you say can. Actually, it's Mantis. It's been no see builds. That's right. Wow. And P

spk_2:   16:34
s. So I'll start. My my name is Brandon, and I'm originally from Houston, Texas, and I moved here in 2008. Just gay. I just hear from school here for school. Sorry, but

spk_0:   16:48
I didn't know you were a transplant. Oh,

spk_2:   16:50
yeah, Yeah. Houston, Texas for 18 years. And I'm not Ah, not ah, homesick person. So I was like, I would not let me just kind of move

spk_0:   16:57
him. Houston is hot, literally leads her literal, like the people or just a lot of their people. But, like, for me, it's very I can't make it to anybody right now. And I know you an open window, right? Yeah. I'm not a

spk_2:   17:17
homesick person. And then I knew that at a young age, I'm like, Okay, I know I'm I'm pretty much into guy. So this is a thing that I wasn't really tryingto show my parents. I have a conversation with him about some bad. Also prompted the move. And then my dad was like a Well, if you go to this certain college, I can come up every single weekend. So I'm like, Yeah, this. No, no, For me. So yeah, and so that is pretty much were solidified the decision

spk_0:   17:44
On what? Adrie. When you knew. Because Bobby is when you got put on the shoulders of, ah, ex football player, soldier soldier for you. But I was, like, six. I was in first grade. I think

spk_2:   17:57
about the same age.

spk_0:   17:58
And I knew I didn't know. But I did hear something was different.

spk_2:   18:02
You knew I was like saying younger. Yeah, the same. Ah, I would want to say around the same time, because then I just knew, like Princess Jasmine was the biggest fucking thing at the time exactly. You know, a dozen biggest fuck. And just like when it comes to playing the girl characters is always a thing. And the Barbies? Not that these things are exclusive for gay men, right? It's just kind of from my experience, it just kind of more so shifted towards the certain things and kind of gotten that way. Um, I used to play the B word

spk_0:   18:38
Barbies with Thio B word. And she's like, I'm playing with my cousin and it was like all the time I loved it would go in the basement in the basement, wearing the basement. They had a finished basement. You know that type You have finished basement, Bobby? Yes. OK, do your Barbies town there. You actually have dragged down drag. That's like real Barbie. Ex real life size

spk_3:   19:10
Barbie. I'm Eric. I'm from Wester Ohio River. Um, and I came to Columbus for grad school, I guess for the last part of it, OK, and I've been here ever since I worked here. Um, my experience was a little bit different. I'd say I didn't know from a young age. I mean, looking back in hindsight, I could kind of see different things, but I kind of came out. I had my first experience when I was in college and I had fallen in love with a good friend. And then, um then not yet kind of opened me up to things I didn't know. And then once that kind of happened, Ah, there wasn't any going back. I mean, I didn't know this city from early age, but when I look back, I did Did play with Barbies. I was, Yeah. I mean, but I was kind of I did a lot of things, so I was a little, and it's kind of normal for kids to do that up until 12 13 anyway, So I didn't really think anything of it. And I'd really great parents, So they just kind of let me do what I wanted

spk_0:   20:04
to do. You have to crush is like Engine because I distinctly remember seventh grade. We live by interested in people. But

spk_3:   20:13
then I thought, I just want to be friends with them. I

spk_0:   20:15
don't necessarily

spk_3:   20:15
know that I was like, more physically attractive, but I had, like, I just had interest. I think I want to be their friend and like some of the people on TV, like I remember like Will Smith with someone that I really was interested in and So I was, like, one of my first crushes, I guess when I was younger, but and so I didn't really know it was a crush, but looking back and I'm like, Yeah, *** with that Was that?

spk_0:   20:37
Yeah, that was getting

spk_3:   20:43
jiggy with it.

spk_0:   20:44
That was that. I remember when that came

spk_3:   20:45
in, Men in black, Aggie. I was watching. And no one really likes his rap, But I

spk_0:   20:49
did. I didn't like him as a rapper. Sorry. Cuss words didn't Yeah, I was like, What does it really mean? Mean way City

spk_3:   21:02
girls like we're the baguette,

spk_1:   21:06
period. Right. My name is Jean. Oh, I'm originally from the east side of Columbus. I recently relocated back here after about almost two decades of being away at the age of actually when I was in preschool. I remember during that time going off to the coat room and kissing a young man who is actually who was gay as well. I'm I feel occasionally when I go out, he has

spk_3:   21:35
always been kind of bad.

spk_0:   21:37
He's cute. Yes, Gino. Yes, And so ashamed. You know, school. I'm jealous. Starting young,

spk_1:   21:46
but yes. Oh, by the way, remember like making out with him a couple of times during during that time and then Wow. And then kind of teacher. Public school? Yeah, we're noted. Taxes they're born in. No, I'm no Code War e. I didn't have any real action until I was 16. I was actually on a conference for a youth organization that was a part of and a slightly older man kind of lured me into his room and into his hotel room. And we had our first interaction, and I remember that transpired. I felt there was, like, a lot of distaste in my mouth for it. Well, there was a

spk_0:   22:28
way. Depends on his diet, right?

spk_3:   22:36
He was not eating enough fruits,

spk_1:   22:38
right? But then our neighbors once that transpired, going back to my girlfriend at the time and just like being, like, so in love with her. And then her and I, we broke up. And then there were the young man that was like a close friend. And then we ended up scratching the tickling. And then at 17 I kind of knew that I was in Tim in. What

spk_0:   22:58
do you mean bad? Bad taste was because you had a girlfriend at the time or because he was molder. Like, Do you ever look back on that? And things like this older guy preyed on me? Or do you feel like it was You were totally into that experience and that was okay.

spk_1:   23:10
I think I have to claim the experience. I don't feel like I was raped or anything, because I was 16. I was in Washington, D c actually for a conference when I was in high school. I used to be selected to go represent various organizations. And so I was at a professional conference and I think that this man thought that I wasn't no, maybe 16 made right in college. And we were at the J. W. Marriott, actually in D. C. And he I ran into him in the lobby. Hey, have some chicken wings. I'm about to go up to my room. Do you want Thio come up? And I was like, Sure, things kind of lead quickly. And then I remember at that moment just not fully enjoying it. And you're gonna

spk_3:   23:53
know that that might happen or what?

spk_0:   23:55
He was inviting you. I don't

spk_1:   23:57
think I was as naive, but then I think I was more so curious. And since I wasn't, I wasn't in my own space. I've never had to worry about seeing this man again, right? I mean, looking back, I could have I mean then drugged and and done. No way. We're That's

spk_0:   24:14
sad, but true. Yeah, there's a lot of experience loss have had those kind of. But now I kind of think back on that I'm like, when I was 16

spk_1:   24:23
once I started actively interacting with men, I had a fake I D. At 16 anyway. And so I was already being exposed to, like going out and hanging out and and parties people and I was drinking or doing drugs. I just enjoy just being out.

spk_0:   24:40
Yeah, let's talk about your coming out process, then. Is this something? So you moved away from Houston not to have the conversation? Is this something that has been talked about? Sense?

spk_2:   24:52
Ah, years been talked about a sense. I think the move kind of just like I'm just going to kind of do my thing over here. But then there were people from my certain my specific high school that came all the way with me. So even Still, I just kind of felt uneasy about doing certain things or even dating. And then my coming out story was Was not necessarily meet coming out. I guess I put something on Facebook is for us like, Hey, I'm interested in men. I thought I had it very selective as far as I who could see it and kind of private, but I didn't. And I found that out quickly. S o. I know my had a lot of missed calls from, like, family, and I was just kind of looking like, Oh, something's going on. And so I called my sister back because then she usually just kind of tell me quickly what's going on rushing around. It s Oh, yeah, she doesn't say hi. She didn't say, Hey, how's it going? She's she immediately just goes and she's like, Hey, are you gay? And I was like, Oh, like what? And so it just kind of catches me out guard now, just like, uh, she's like, Well, Facebook says that you're interested in men. I'm like, uh so I didn't necessarily deny it, but I didn't necessarily claim it. I'm just like, Well, I guess if that's what it says that that's what Facebook says. My big news, I'm not sure. So So I knew what my dad was calling for. So the next day, like, um like, yeah, I called him back and I was like, Oh, Lord, not kind of know why he's calling. And so he just asked me flat out on. Then I told him yes, and I had my roommate there with me because I'm like, I can't do this by myself right now. So yeah, I told him then. But that's not the first time that they knew about me liking men. So in high school, a CZ most people do in high school, they surf the net. You're looking at porn. You forget Thio, erase the history. So that happened. Like when I was 17 I forgot to erase the history, and I remember it being like three in the morning. My dad woke me up and he's just like, Hey, is he's like, Hey, come with me really fast. My mom's at two and it's like this explicit gay porn. I mean, it's gold gold today, but yeah, I looked and I was like, Oh, okay, okay. Like is this yours? I'm like it could be my sisters. And so I tried to be Oh, wait. New news mine. That's true. So my dad I never forget my dad went thio. He literally just got his shit just went toe Work it, like during the morning. Um, he's a bus driver. No, he went toe work it like there anymore. Just got the shit and just left about My mom actually addressed it. She was like, Well, what makes you gay? You can have Ah, child with my friend at the time Ralston And she's like, You can't have a child with raw stone and I just remember just not saying anything. I didn't answer her. And then my dad came home. He acted like it never happened. And so it was just kind of like, Hey, I'm kind of back where I started and I didn't address it, so I just kind of let it go. But then later, when I got into college that moment, that was when it kind of kicked me in like, Hey, this is you. And I remember he told me like you're going to go to hell since he's big into the church saying he's like, don't come home for Christmas And so yeah, I just that Christmas I didn't. I come home. I just kind of just did my own thing. And I don't know, I just I really was just happy with being myself for that moment. It was hard. But then I'm just like, I'm glad I did it just because I was able to own my truth And I was just so fucking tired or just hiding like, uh, you have to do this to please this person do this. And I just think that moment I was just tired of doing that. That

spk_0:   28:39
makes me feel lucky. Like they really thought of it like I came out and it was pretty much fine. And my family was religious, too, so I didn't really know how they respond. Reactive Belic. It wasn't really a problem. So, like, what are things like with them now?

spk_2:   28:55
We're We're better now, like a lot better. It took them a very, very long time to kind of come to grips with Hey, this is who he is because I think my dad, he's like, Hey, you're my only son. You gotta carry on my name. So to him being gay, you don't want to have kids. You know what? This and so I do wanna have kids eventually. Not today, but no, just it's a lot better. And I think they just accept it just because I had to go to war with them, like back and forth flyover years, just to say, Hey, this is me or even take them to task over things like if my sister convention, who she's dating and and I can't and you say I don't want to hear about this So I'm like, Well, what's different? Why do I have to hide or why do I have to not say anything about somebody? I live where I like just because you're you're not comfortable with this, and I'm just got to the point where we just kind of went back and forth just because I wasn't going to put myself back in the closet.

spk_0:   29:52
From your perspective, as far as a cultural perspective, is that something that's common within the African American community?

spk_2:   29:58
I won't. I won't speak for all because then I know it could be different. I'm just depending. I will just say just from like my specific experience is something that is looked down upon. I remember just growing up in my dad and my uncles. What kind of make fun of people that were gay or say I look at this guy and so it really was something that I had never planned to say anything about. I'm like I would take this with me to my grave when you die and I'll be there at the headstone. I'll say something then. And I honestly just had that view just because I knew they view think so negatively. And I just think me being gay is actually pretty good for us now just because they've been ableto have that exposure and really see that it doesn't necessarily change too many things. It's like, OK, my sexual orientation is different, but I'm still May I still joke like this. I still do the things I do. I still can play dominoes. I'm still kind of into sports or playing things. So it doesn't really change anything except for my orientation. And you can still care on the name. Yes, it is. Okay, that's

spk_0:   31:05
exactly how I feel exactly how I feel. You know parents thing bother. They want grandkids. My mom's a nice like you're so very something. Nice church boy. She gets it now. But first my mom was like, that was her biggest crush. Was like, You're not gonna have kids. The end of the line wasn't even a good line about that. Well, it needed to stop it, Tonto. Okay. Okay. Eric, what about you? What's your story about coming out?

spk_3:   31:37
So I had a couple different coming out stories, I guess. But so my first interaction was, um I kind of was outed, so in college by, um uh, close friends girlfriend. So I was dating a female at the time. We've been together for about seven months, and then I had my experience with my friend. And then I was like, I wanted to be honest and to share, So I shared with the girl that I was dating, and so I came out. I didn't I didn't come out to her. I mean, I wasn't didn't identify as gay at that point. So I came out to her about what, What had happened. And I told a close friend that was also a, um uh, housemate And what happened when I when I when I came out to my housemate?

spk_2:   32:26
Well, you said you said you told her about what happened.

spk_3:   32:28
Yeah, so that was really bad. So,

spk_0:   32:31
yeah, I was extremely

spk_3:   32:32
upset, like, and we were pretty serious, I guess. I mean, we had talked about, like, the future and kids and family and we but yes, it was kind of it was pretty serious, but, um, yes, so it didn't go so well. Um, it was really emotional for the two of us, like, and she was grabbed. I told her it was obviously, you know, we kind of rather know now than it be something that happened. But that was definitely around the time where a lot of people were talking about my human Harris books and then, like, down low culture and stuff in the AFC American community. So I feel like that kind of played into it. And so her mom was pretty pretty upset as well. And she was like calling and texting and being kind of inappropriate about stuff just just mean, you know, I thought I was like, you know, out there trying tow no fool. Everybody and and things like that. So it didn't go so well. But she was happy that I was holder.

spk_0:   33:25
How did did you get the feeling that she knew this was like between you two? Or did you think that? Oh, she's mad and she's gonna go tell people Like

spk_3:   33:34
what? Well, um, my exit. She told her family, and she said she told her family because she didn't want she wanted to be held accountable, and she didn't want to go back to me. You know, I guess

spk_0:   33:45
that makes sense. Anyway, this is kind of personal, but you're closer. Yeah.

spk_3:   33:48
Yeah. So she had told her mom, and like her sister and stuff that she was close with, And so they were just upset because they cared about me and they Yeah, except to me as a part of their family. And so I think they took it as, like, you know, a betrayal to them. Okay, so anyway, and then So I told a close friend, and then, um, he had told his girlfriend and then she had actually started tell people on campus, and so I was outed. And so I think that kind of changed the experience. I really didn't get to control the story or get to come out on my own. It kind of happened for me in terms of school. On that was pretty rough. So it kind of destroyed, like all of our friendships. Almost. I mean, it was just pretty bad, because we you know this. Yeah, it wasn't really under control. Yeah,

spk_0:   34:34
like you're walking around and you can just you just feel like people know, like, everyone knows this part about you that you don't even really shared with them.

spk_3:   34:41
And there was this, uh, like, website called Juicy Campus. I didn't really know about it at that time, but I guess there was, like, a website where you could post things about what's going on on campus.

spk_0:   34:53
So yeah. Yeah. So and it was anonymous.

spk_3:   34:56
And so I didn't ever I've never read the stuff, but I was told that yeah, like our story or what people thought the story was because since v and my friend, we've been friends since we were kids. And so we people just that, like, that kind of went to college and I were d l the whole time. And she was like a beard. And I was doing this whole thing to try to fool everybody. And we all involved, we knew the truth. But obviously, you know, the story that was told on campus was little more interesting. And so, yeah, a lot of people, um, kind of new, and then the black community is pretty small, and so it kind of spread through that. So definitely changed our college experience, and then I don't think me or my friend, we're ready. Tow, Come out. And so it kind of forced us out before we had kind of come to terms with what? You know, it was for us. But then, in terms of coming out to my family,

spk_2:   35:49
I wear with the juicy campus. Did they include your name or your picture with that?

spk_3:   35:58
People knew who I was. Stuff like I ran track. I mean, I was involved in stuff. I was

spk_2:   36:04
also even with no picture. They just put your name and just said, Hey, yeah,

spk_3:   36:08
yeah, they put on Yeah, it was our campus. Wasn't that large that you wouldn't know. And it was certain people that were

spk_0:   36:15
kind of reading. Yeah. I mean, I

spk_3:   36:17
never read the extra information. I just heard from other people. Like, Yeah, like you're sure the mining Look, I would be ruined. Yeah, some

spk_0:   36:24
the most. Yeah, it would be really hard to go then in the public and go like, walk through campus like socially. I don't know what that is. Exactly.

spk_3:   36:36
What's that thing with your family? It was a different story. A little bit. Yes, of my family was kind of interesting because I had I was dating a female. So she had been home and stuff treat the family. And in a couple months later, I was dating a guy and then I kind of guys and girl on offer a couple of years in college b s I when I was gonna bring someone home. Also, now is a good time. So I kind of had came out to them and it went well. I wrote my mom a letter. I guess that's kind of how I came out. Um, and it's funnycause. I think I had more problems with it than they did. So my dad, like one of So I'm adopted. And so my family is wait and see. But my dad's you know one of his best friends is gay black man. So that was kind of interesting. And then my parents sold their first house toe a gay couple. So I had these different kind of message is growing up where it was fine and they didn't care. So I mean, I didn't think that they were gonna be upset or whatever, but I I I think I really thought I was not as good or that I was kind of letting people down or being like a educated black man, like I should. You know, I'm not gonna contribute in the same way because I'm gay or I'm not. I'm not straight. My mom was sad that I guess I had to go through what I had gone through and she didn't know about it, and I went through it on my own. I mean, I didn't I had friends, but she was just kind of like, you know, things. Okay, Like, that's a lot to go through. And I feel bad that I didn't know about it earlier, but otherwise, but they're great, right? There is your parents flag. Oh, they were in this groups too. Well, they joined those groups in their professors. They teach about stuff like they're very like they're pretty awesome. Yeah, they're pretty great. That's awesome. That you had you

spk_0:   38:25
knew going into your parents discussion that it was going to be helpful. But like then the fact that radio don't go through it on your own like, yeah, I think I was more uncomfortable. And they were and

spk_3:   38:37
I felt a lot of

spk_0:   38:37
good. I said, where we grow up in the society of girl been our culture that Okay, it's internalized homophobia, right? All right, You know what? It's your story. Then

spk_1:   38:46
the first person actually came out to you within my family was my little brother, and I felt like I was kind of out it. At that time. My brother and I were nine years apart, and I was literally living in New Mexico about to move to Korea, and I came home on. Guy met one of his friends and his friends. Mother was a lesbian, and she I went to my brother like, the next day and said, Hey, how does your brother deal with being gay in the military? And my brother comes to me the next day and was, like so miss So and so said asked me the question of How do you deal with being gay in the military? And I'm like, Well, I am looking I am gay Malcolm And he was like, Okay, cool. So he ended up telling his mother, They're really close on Dhe. She had no issues with it on then, about eight years later is when I actually told my my actual mother and my biological father that shot into my father, I'm I told my mother, and the only reason I told my mother because my brother was having a child and my mother was like room and I was 30 at the time and she said, Do you plan on having Children? And I told her I was like, What, Mom, I'm gay, but I'm interested in having a family, and she was totally fine with it. She was totally fine. The next day she came back with a couple of questions. But my family is accepting. I've had other gay people in my family have come out, and so I think, the reason why I was just a little bit more distant or not selling them because I'm actually really private when it comes out. So, like my personal information, even with my family, and I was more so looking forward to bringing home like my boyfriend and saying like, This is my boyfriend versus and light I don't I never felt like I needed to come out because I'm my family's favorite on and then my father better You heard it here for everybody else and sit down and go home. But then, my father, it was mainly about two or three years after I told my mother and my parents are divorced and my brother's mother and my father, they were having some wine and just like hanging out. And my father, um, asked my stepmother, my except mother, Hey, is Gino gay? And she said that she tried to deflect the question and and then maybe, like five or 10 minutes later, he came back and asked the same question. Um, and then she ended up telling him, and then I woke up the next morning to text messages from my father, and his sex machine was like, I love you. I just want grandkids. And that was the conversation and about three years ago. My father passed away three years ago, and right before he passed, he came to visit me. I was living out of the country, and we had about, like, a three hour conversation of my dealings with men and on and him just saying like, he was just really supportive of me. So that was my coming out and then my gift. I haven't had a work coming out. Not that I'm afraid. I think I'm more so I am open just not out. Um, and so I haven't been in a space of saying like, Oh, this is my boyfriend or this is my partner. But my staff, they joke with me. Well, there's a couple people in my staff that joke with me about Oh, I need your friend to do so. And so I'm like, Okay, you got no free. Yes, sir. That's my my coming out stories. All

spk_3:   42:30
right, That's awesome. I mean, awesome in

spk_2:   42:32
the sense that

spk_0:   42:33
there's a lot three different stories here. So what would you take away is that every everybody every parent wants grandparents? Yeah, great. Every parent wants that thin clothes they dio you're gonna have to edit that one right? A lot of people want, I think, what are people like excessively in their subconscious? It's like you're thinking about it all the time. Brings

spk_3:   42:59
it up all the time.

spk_0:   43:00
I mean, like, that's the denial of death. But there you go, you're coming. Didn't know Bobby's afraid of death. There's a book that's called Denial, Dad, and the whole the only reason you have kids to continue your legacy because you don't ever want to die. So it's like you live forever through your Children. So I think that's why it's like a natural thing for a lot of people you know, have kids. Oh, my God. How are you gonna live? Forever. But it's, like, so common. Yeah, right. I really think a lot of people are like something and like a I Yeah, I work well, I've talked about before, but I work with someone who is obsessed with having biological Children, and Eric over here is stopped it. I mean, I think you turned out fine if you're adopted, but my mother is

spk_1:   43:44
actually not. She has never pressured me.

spk_0:   43:46
Oh, no, I'm sorry. I'm not No, no, no. Just like I'm very fortunate. I thought

spk_2:   43:53
about it. It was like that. He come to my

spk_1:   43:55
No, no, no, no, no. I'm just thinking like I'm actually really fortunate because my father was the one that went to be a grand parent. But my mother, my mother had me late in life. She was 35 then she also has a lot of friends who don't have Children. 35 in the eighties,

spk_0:   44:11
way late in life. 35 35 kids in our age, 36 years

spk_1:   44:23
I e. In the eighties, it was it was uncommon, for it wasn't I'm gonna have a child in your

spk_0:   44:29
No. Yeah, but, um, it's

spk_3:   44:31
a advanced maternal

spk_1:   44:33
age. It's

spk_3:   44:33
definitely a thing.

spk_1:   44:34
Yeah. I mean, like, I'm glad that she has been. She's never questioned about me being in a relationship or never pressured me and being a relationship or wanted grandkids, I think completely different dynamic of my mother's relationship and i

spk_2:   44:48
e. I want to introduce you all to my dad. We could be talking about water cases of water. He's like Children loved what I was like. We were way anything that wasn't love. Babies love lost Children low power and empire and all these shows. I'm like, Game of Thrones here you got? Exactly. There it is. Say,

spk_0:   45:14
now I have a question. Oh, well, first of all, a disclaimer. We're not having three black men on here to represent all of the black community in the entirety of the black A community. But like we heard a term earlier that I don't think everyone is wherever sort of down low. Like, What's up with that? What is that? Is it a thing? Is it complex? Do you agree with that concept of theirs? The down low. I call it Street serious. So L d It's another question. I'm just gonna figure it out there. Sure. Would you rather be me say the black community or the African American community? Or Black is fine. I like you. Okay,

spk_3:   45:54
that's more PC. I guess now

spk_0:   45:56
I'm just curious, cause I was like, you know, as saying, black eye. I

spk_3:   46:01
know you're nervous. You

spk_0:   46:02
know? E o. You should wear this. You should be

spk_3:   46:07
nervous, and that's okay. But black is fine.

spk_2:   46:09
Yeah, It's good to ask, though, because I think people know cause and I know a lot of different things of go for different people. So then I know some people like who? Don't call me this or some people like, Hey, this is fine. So I think a just ask. And well,

spk_0:   46:24
that's how I kind of approached, especially with the pockets. If I don't ask that, I'm not gonna know. And then if I don't know that I might say something that I shouldn't Then you get more nourishing your basket and drink more trapped in your company and you people Oh, Japanese the name. 00 I got it. I was like, Run, Bethany, Just for time to get your bags with me. So down low, down low. I mean, we still have not heard an answer.

spk_1:   46:54
Have you ever heard of Ellen Harris? Just from him. Okay, so it's actually

spk_0:   46:59
another book, like there was something was going on the down low,

spk_3:   47:03
And he was on Oprah. I think there was a book by Keith. Somebody who wants a weekend. Yeah,

spk_0:   47:11
several recent and you, you know. Yeah, I looked it up.

spk_1:   47:15
So actually, I think I'll have several mentees out here in the world. And for Christmas, I ended up getting invisible life by stealing Harris of the books for though, because I think it's still relevant. And his first book was actually written in 1991. Any con a gist journeys this black man coming out story and dealing with these quote unquote down low men and downloads. Basically, just men who are not identifying as gay. You might know the word trade

spk_0:   47:48
once again, only from Eric injecting a little bit of culture in my life.

spk_1:   47:55
I think that's kind of on the on the same caliber of people who are interacting with men, But they don't wanna actually acknowledge interacting with man, so they're keeping it on the down low.

spk_0:   48:06
Had you heard that term before Bobby down low? Yes. Okay, because used to do it on Craigslist, I would miss connections. Oh, it was medicine in and like something else. There's another one, just like, Oh, I know what you're talking about. Two different ones. You could do you like men seeking men. There was, like cattle encounter, eyes, very cash.

spk_3:   48:27
And there was, like a pretty negative stigma around it because it was kind of like, Oh, they're spreading HIV and he's in there. You know

spk_0:   48:34
what I was thinking like you were on the down low and you're sitting around. You were a danger now that their daughter was that she

spk_3:   48:42
went and got, like, Esty, her mom and dad. Are you going to go get screened? You told I want to see their You know, this stuff and yeah, I mean, yeah, but that was kind of the coach. So So it's definitely a negative thing, I would

spk_0:   48:54
say. What is it? You know, like, if you talk to, like, a seven year old black woman like which you would know the term ball down low? I don't know. I don't think that depends on who you been. Anyway, I don't know if it's more of a

spk_1:   49:08
game is more of a black gate. My guys?

spk_0:   49:11
Yeah. Culture. Because it sounds the same as what he did, Bobby. Yeah, but just yes. Straight. Curious. Like the

spk_3:   49:17
whole experience is not exclusive to that bank. That term is a little more okay. In the black community, it's a

spk_1:   49:22
but felt like down low was actually in Paris is burning.

spk_2:   49:26
Oh, also, um, Terry McMillan, Uh, because I know she's the author for how Stella got her groove back. So that wasn't necessarily a book about, Ah, Down Low Man. But she's talking about her experience with a man and in real life, her partner at the time. It was later found out that he was interested in men, so people put him in the category of Hey, this individual is down low. Or he's trying to like Eric said, probably had these negative things as far as like trying to infect her are do stuff like that so down low, like you were saying Very negative, like just think a gutter or somebody with negative intentions. So it's like, Hey, it's almost like telling you is into your intentions. It's like, All right, you are knowingly lying to this woman and you are knowingly spreading this and so that that's kind of the stigma that comes with it. I think

spk_3:   50:21
the reason why people were not where people aren't open to sharing or feel safe in those spaces are Philip. They, you know, need to date female or have kids do all these things to be productive people. I think that fear in those type of reasons, or why people are d'oh So I think that the act of itself is obviously it's not a good thing. It's not healthy, it's not. It's not fun for for for anyone. But I think the reason why people do it, you know, it's kind of, you know, is like a larger issue in the black experience. I guess so. Speaking of experience, what

spk_0:   50:54
is your experience with the gay community as a whole?

spk_1:   50:56
I think that the gay community itself is really that seems

spk_0:   51:00
a little clicky. It's It's not diverse. Yep,

spk_1:   51:03
I mean, and if you look at it from ethnicities like a lot of times like it seems like it's either white or black. There's not a lot of space. Is that that we kind of cold mingle within that or within our own subcultures? I within the black community. I think that they're certain stigmas that we have of Oh, um, this is the trade group, you know, like this hyper masculine group. Or like you have your film, your feminine guys. I'm like, Do they necessarily co mingle with with all spectrums of the of the community, I mean, and even looking at it from the transgender side or um or of or of drag queens. I don't think sometimes like we called mingle even though we're supposed to be all inclusive, but I think that we're not. I know there's a lot of times that when I go into the white spaces, even though it may be a gay place, I feel uncomfortable. The times that I've actually felt embraced in areas of dealing with white gay men has been places that's just been a little bit more exclusive like, Oh, you pay money to come to this dinner or you were invited by the mayor to do this versus me going to union and you're looking at me like, Oh, you're a potential gutter gay, you know? And so I I think I struggle. Not

spk_2:   52:24
a good again. What's it gonna get that attend

spk_1:   52:29
I got from DC from some of my friends, people who have nothing to lose?

spk_0:   52:34
I feel like I am a guy today. No. Okay, good information. You want to be your e not. I

spk_2:   52:44
want to go back on what Gino said. Just because I know that is definitely like the feeling I was getting, too. And I know it's like based off of the societal norms and that hierarchy, depending on your different intersections. So it's kind of like in the grand scheme of things, if the whole black and white thing, or in the grand scheme of things, it's for us. Like if you guys are gay, are you more masculine? The certain things kind of play Are you a top or bottom? And if you're in the LGBT community, are you transits like the thing's kind of society looks down upon that comes into play? Sometimes when it comes to the hierarchy of where people place you, or where people kind of look at where to place your howto look atyou? So that kind of comes into play when it comes to that, that feeling of just kind of like, Well, what? What is that about? When I'm in a community of just gay men or the LGBT Q Community, our space, that's for us and just kind of That feeling comes from that

spk_3:   53:44
is misogyny to I mean, it's interesting because a lot of the characteristics that are associated with females, or if eminent, things, if those characteristics are maybe embraced or expressed in certain men, I think they're seen as less so if you are a bottom or if you don't know, dress in a skirt and heels and you're stealing female stuff or whatever, you know?

spk_0:   54:07
Yeah, we made these shirts. We were found. That leg. It said No Fats FM. Wait, wait. Was it That's a pretty even Ram is the most fat supplies because they see no fats, no fans. And, like some people put on their profiling. No Asians, no black lake. You're like we're already within this, like, smaller pool. And then we're like, still ex sectioning off everything into lake. You're saying it's misogyny. It's like feminine characteristics are suddenly bad. Transphobia Borneo.

spk_3:   54:38
You know what a male assigned at birth would want to, you know, How would they? You're

spk_0:   54:43
not actually gonna be a man. It's like, Well, wait a second. Why is that better?

spk_3:   54:47
What you meant? You know, you're strong without yeah, there's all these things. I think that is, I guess, the root of that.

spk_2:   54:53
You hear people's parents say that though they're like will and females. He's gay, but at least he's not wearing these clothes. At least he doesn't have a wig on, and that becomes highlighted just because it's like will. He's more masculine. So it kind of more of a pass, I guess, with some people. So, you know, it's like they still play sports, and they kind of do this and they just these things that are associative that society associates with men. So they kind of get a pass, depending on who you're asking.

spk_0:   55:23
Okay, I'm gonna ask this question. I don't know if this like, I don't know if I'm gonna work it right. So just bear with me. Do you feel like sometimes you could be a novelty to people as far as like, oh, BBC or what? That kind of thing. Sexually? Absolutely. What is it about BBC and perked up? What you say I'm talking about? Yes, exactly. Paying attention. Thanks for coming back to the conversation, cause I always I've heard that from other black gay guys. Like they feel like and like when you walk in the union like I feel like anybody walks in the union. I mean, no offense of union, but I feel like I'm a fucking disaster. I'm a gutter gay. Yeah. Ideo in the gutter. I'm gonna start using. Sure. I mean, it's, you know, It's a hard place to walk in if you're anybody, because everybody's trying to be somebody there. And really, it's just shouldn't be that way. We walk in ineffable Look, it's trash. So on the APs and stuff like, do you guys feel like you're in already? I mean, how would you What? Can you go into detail on that? Yeah,

spk_3:   56:26
I think people we went to gonna feder size people. And so I mean, I think that is a thing. I mean, anybody kind of sends a message about something that kind of comes off that way, or if they have, like, a profile that says, Oh, I prefer Asians or I prefer in black whatever. I just kind of immediately kind of cut them out. And so I don't engage. So, um, yeah, I think it does happen a lot. I think you're seeing is like a sexual object in cases, and I think that's been an issue with black men in general. And I think for black gay men, it's obviously still think

spk_2:   56:59
and, um and yeah, that it No, that is a thing just being treated like a novelty. And just when you even think about people saying, Hey, I prefer prefer no Asians or I prefer blacks is just kind of thinking is kind of going into the room or what that person thinks that they're going to get us far as an experience. So it is bothersome and is is really troubling for somebody think that they're going to get the same exact experience, every single black man or from every single person that identifies this Asian. Okay, they're gonna have a big, big they're gonna be really aggressive with me. And it's kind of like the things that have been depicted on television or what you see from from the media. So what's being put out there? So if somebody doesn't have that exposure, that could be their reality, and that could be

spk_1:   57:46
true for them. I think the part that annoys me from the fetish standpoint we could be out, and yet you don't reproach me. But then you see me at a bathhouse or you see me on the app, and then now that's the time that you want to actually engage with me.

spk_3:   58:04
You wantto be kind of dick down by a black guy. But you also say you know blue lattes matter. So there they don't always kind of value you as a human. And that is, I think the biggest problem for me is like, you know, there's there's more to that than just a fetish or part.

spk_0:   58:21
What would you say to the gay community? As far as coming from a black person's perspective,

spk_1:   58:26
really, when it comes down to diversity and I'm not just gonna look at it from a black thing, I mean from a black gay part, I'm gonna look at it from a humanity side, And I think once you are exposed to people who are very different than you and have genuine connections and being able to ask pointed questions, but not from you may sound like you are being naive or ignorant. But if it's coming from a genuine space, I think having those dialogues can be able to break down barriers. Um, and I think in looking at specifically from the black gays and versus the white gays, I think if we had more, um, community, uh, and not feeling segregated when we actually are walking into the spices, I think that will probably tear down barriers,

spk_2:   59:16
and I also know that it is not necessarily the responsibility of that certain group. Two More so be that once said to teach. Now you may know somebody who is there and you can have that conversation. But since that knowledge is out there, definitely you have has to be like a hunger toe wanna to get that exposure, to get those answers to kind of see why these certain things are set up the way that they are likewise, this system in place. And how does it trickle down and and what its winters? It's like kind of mechanisms of articulation, like, How's that coming out? What does that look like? Yeah, I

spk_3:   59:54
think it's important. Like quit. Gino was saying that you have toe kind of read and, like educate yourself and expose yourself and be comfortable being uncomfortable. And so I think that for a lot of people, you can kind of stay in your lane. Um, and if you're not gonna force out of it by some of the situation, you kind of, you know, hang around what you're always used to. And so I think, especially if you are not a part of a certain community and you wanna, you know, understand more or just be a little, uh, increase your cultural sensitivity. I think that you kind of have to just expose yourself.

spk_2:   1:0:30
Definitely exposure. Agree?

spk_0:   1:0:32
I would agree that as well. I think when you get uncomfortable with a situation and you always grow regardless of, you know, just a conversation, it is that simple sometimes. And people forget about

spk_3:   1:0:43
that. I think it was important, like we're talking about earlier. Is it? I don't know. We all spoke from our individual experiences. And so you can't. That's one thing. You know. It's an issue. You know. You can't obviously take a few people's views, and you can explain it all. Yeah, we're not a homogenous

spk_0:   1:0:58
way we've been doing. So you have to work a little harder uncomfortable a

spk_3:   1:1:04
few more times than I gather more stuff. So I think you know, we are just kind of spoke about us. But, you know, I can't have this conversation with more people are gonna have your own conversations.

spk_2:   1:1:14
Yeah, definitely, definitely. Hey, it's a lot of information out there, especially in today's age, so definitely be open toe, like looking for that information. Definitely be open to those conversations If you're if you're able tohave when somebody you know, um, I definitely know that Hey, everybody's experience is different, So it may not be like one stroke across the board Reading is fundamental. Yes, it

spk_0:   1:1:40
words matter. Is that a RuPaul on black radio show?

spk_1:   1:1:47
I mean, just the echo on what Eric just said about reading, and I think how you came up in the beginning talking about are coming out. Sorry, I'm thinking about the Keith Boykin book for Color Boys who have considered suicide when the Rainbow is still not enough coming of age, coming out and coming home out of the book about About said about five or six years ago. And I think that kind of shows like the black experience of some people coming out on Ben also think about from a literature Sandpoint. You know, going back to our classics, going to James Baldwin or looking at Ellen Harris. I've read even Harris book when I was 17 and it gave me a different perspective of how to kind of navigate through the through the gay community. And even though it was a fiction book, it still was kind of relevant, but I think and me re reading it right now. It's a book that kind of gives exposure and, like how you're asking about down low or some of these words that we still use, like shade and trade and and reading eyes really wrote Still president in those books

spk_2:   1:2:53
in just also, um, just just thinking about like what Janet Mock said. So when she her book redefining realness. So she gave her story and in her giving her story, It's not necessarily telling you exactly how you should go about things are exactly how you need to move in. Your life is more so kind of being the inspiration. And so just when it comes to different people's perspectives, just notice kind of more so coming from that aspect. And it's not necessarily like, Hey, I got through this way. I did this way and just this is my perspective. This is my experience, but it's not necessarily a blueprint for for you or for this person or for that one. So just if if somebody is listening and you're part of this Ah, this you are a part of the group of black men and who identify as gay or were in that room. Just hey, just know that that's what it's for

spk_0:   1:3:51
is to be brought up. James Baldwin. I'm not your Negro. You gotta watch it. Giovanni's room moving E o. Give

spk_2:   1:4:05
me more Britney Spears. Come on. Yes, Come on, now.

spk_1:   1:4:10
Going. I mean, he was tapping into a genre that wasn't necessary out there. And I think he paved the way not just from a black standpoint, but just from a gay sample. What

spk_0:   1:4:19
I've learned more than anything is I need to educate myself more like I don't even know what you're talking. I want t o Let's go through this the more I want to learn more that sound good. Sounds great things. I'm a learner. I am, because I just you are. I want to know. But I don't want to offend ever. And I know like you said, it's safe space. But like I think I'm a like, like a lot of people something. We just want to know the answer. And sometimes it's hard just to ask the question. There's not a

spk_3:   1:4:48
lot of answers, more nuance, you know. But in general we're all human and we all want the same thing going to be loved and accepted. And I think we kind of forget that a lot. Jax were definitely a lot more like two. Very different.

spk_2:   1:5:00
That's a That's a really good take away. As far as like, hey, being able to recognize the not the human and other people so and other groups that are different than yours a different intersections, So being ableto just recognize that they I want the same things I want. They want love. They want safe security and safety. They want thes similar things that I want. So just, like be unable to bond over the things that are very similar like that. Do

spk_0:   1:5:29
you have any questions for us

spk_2:   1:5:30
with what's one of the biggest misconceptions that you've heard about? I guess black gay men or something? Um, that really kind of puzzles you the most. I guess

spk_0:   1:5:41
I really want to know about, like, the BBC thing and the whole leg fetishizing of who you guys were. That was what I was. Yeah, that's huge. I want to know how you guys felt about that just because it sent me to say thanks, Jim, not mean that bat? Well, no pun. It is the brain, meaning your subconscious like white privilege. Colonialism. It's all of it. Just like Gina said. That was my That was my thinking. I know. Finds out something because I think some people we have a daddy episode where the debt he was talking about like he can't speak for everybody, but for him, he likes the term daddy. Some of his friends hate it and they will not respond to your daddy. So he said, embrace it, he embraces it. So he goes, Yeah, I'm Daddy. So my question is, is there any time that you would embrace the sexualized role?

spk_1:   1:6:28
I wouldn't. But I think there's probably something

spk_3:   1:6:30
I don't say cock, period, but me

spk_0:   1:6:33
bbd like No, it just doesn't have any new you just a big dick. I just Maybe

spk_3:   1:6:46
I don't know.

spk_0:   1:6:47
I think it's just a John Ron Pornhub. Really? Yeah, But some people embrace like some people want to bear, right? So I embraced. It is different. It's totally different. So obviously I'm not trying to compare, but like sometimes you have to you on break. But I didn't know if that was the same thing or not.

spk_3:   1:7:02
Yeah, I'm I'm sure there are people that might embrace it. I'm not sure I don't think any of us here do, but I mean their own. I guess everybody's experience is different.

spk_2:   1:7:11
Really? Something that kind of completely got no black gay men is that intersection of being black and being gay. And so sometimes you get hit with micro aggressions from both both angles. So, for instance, like if somebody comes up to you, they or like, Hey, you're in college. Um, are you an athlete? Do you play football? So it just kind of like that assumption kind of get stoned their or, um So you kind of get that when then As far as I being gay, people from your your family could assume that Hey, you do X, Y and Z, or just because you identify as that So those student hates Yeah, those stereotypes. And it's like it. There's nothing wrong with identifying just to be close to others within that same group. But there is definitely something wrong with trying to make a hierarchy offer that. And so just I know that can be tough. Just in general of thinking about being black and being gay and kind of what that looks like to navigate.

spk_3:   1:8:13
I think that humans, I mean, as our brains just gonna organize information we need to put people in categories. That's how we That's what we do about everything. But I think you have toe. I kind of remember that everyone is human and the categories aren't there. Parts of people, maybe, but they're not. They're not people. And so and also just tryingto. Yeah, I guess that does not get to cut up in that.

spk_2:   1:8:35
The category is individuality,

spk_0:   1:8:40
Dad. Not to bring up that, but I just thinkit's one of things that way has us. We have to have kids forever. Long? Yeah, it came full circle, Jim. Yet full circle. I was actually taught. Need therapy by Michael. Just was You need therapy? Well, you know, we all D'oh, we're going to get some feedback. Yeah, he Oh, yeah, yeah. Really dark in here. He's sure sure. I don't know. Maybe this whole like our nap. It's kind of like, hard to have the conversation, So that's kind of how I feel. Like how do you approach with all these different intersections and, like, especially a stranger or someone you might just see at crowded, loud, annoying Clicky bar like you again. Oh, God, I don't They're not gonna let me in, but well, but the value will let you in. But it's like, How do you, like, See someone and like, you really want to see them and you wanna have that conversation, But it's loud. And then it's like, I don't think that it's not that hard. Part is like we have to break this down and, like, get rid of this shit, and it just takes time and effort and keep going to the same place that I want you to feel embraced when you want him to do to help you feel embraces that. Just listen. We're just Africa bark interested and

spk_3:   1:10:05
Black Person's order. I don't

spk_0:   1:10:07
know. A little. Yeah, just do your job, actually, right.

spk_3:   1:10:15
I mean, if people

spk_0:   1:10:16
with grudges agree without prejudice, right? And then, like, keep it in mind to like, um, we're talking about privilege. Do we bring that up now? I know. I only briefly stepped out tonight. That's a whole other. Not again. Goddamn it. Not again. But, um we can talk about it. I mean, like, what it is and what it means to have it. And who has it, and Well, I really heard of it before, Bobby. Well, that I'm saying, I don't know, I do. You know what? Like, do you realize what you have privilege? You have. Okay, tell me about it. I do. But what's going on? I mean, what do you know? And I'm not like I'm gonna start wondering, like, have you? Because it's not a word that a lot like I remember. Like, the first time I heard, I was like, So that means you have money like you're a rich like you're privileged, but, like just different layers and different types of privilege makes people very uncomfortable way, I guess. Yeah, I am privileged. I've worked for everything I have, and I fight hurt for it, and I am. But you know, it's like if you are realize your own privilege.

spk_1:   1:11:20
I think white people act. You have to be aware that you do have white privilege, you have opportunities or you have privileges that not everyone has. I think yourself to look at it from a male perspective. there's Melford. There's white male privilege is like up there and then you have to. Then from there there's hierarchies are like their seers to this. But I think as a white male, you have to be aware that you can get away with certain things that other demographics cannot. And that's where the privilege or like or

spk_3:   1:11:52
when people see you, they assume different things, and when they see other people, they assume different things. And so I think that Brennan was saying

spk_0:   1:12:01
like, Oh, you're in college So you're probably an athlete. You're playing basketball. I mean, I am but

spk_3:   1:12:12
not basketball.

spk_2:   1:12:13
But you think about like accessibility versus affordability, because I think a lot of people think, well, you have access to this Well, why can't you and that affordability peace may not be there. So it's like everybody has access to a $1,000,000 homes. I can see it on Zillow. I can go to this, but that affordability is not there. So that kind of be another layer that kind of goes in. So it's like a well, you have access to it. Why can't you? So that kind of That's an example of where It kind of becomes hard to kind of see at times.

spk_0:   1:12:46
And it's, I think, like people get defensive about it. Like if you ever bring it up with certain people, I guess. But, um, we'll be like, Well, you know, this is just how I was born like I don't What do you mean? I'm privileged, like in shock, an absolute shock when you point it out and some people refuse to see it. It's a little abstract way, but you have a little more realization

spk_2:   1:13:10
is it's I can see what people get defensive is because it's like it's almost like somebody it comes across is like, Hey, you're telling me my intention is bad and that's how some people take it. And so naturally they get defensive like you telling me or you or to say like, Hey, you're ignorant of this is like you're calling me stupid, so as opposed to Hey, you're just not aware of this thing. Um, so it kind of I could see why some people take it is that and it's just like, Hey, you have to recognize and really break down that moment to see, like, where is this coming from What are they actually saying? It can be hard to to process and take it in and really kind of think about what's being said when you feel like somebody's attacking your character.

spk_3:   1:13:54
I think people take it personally, and I think we have to understand that these institutions kind of started hundreds of years ago and they've laid the groundwork. And so maybe you don't personally today like you didn't create those institutions. But you still are responsible of your van. Incorrect. You have benefits. Then you also responsible to make sure that you're sharing those benefits or that other people have access to those spaces as well. So yeah, I think people get really defensive and take things personally.

spk_0:   1:14:23
I want to see Bobby. Can you think an example of some of your privilege? Maybe White privilege? Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think you have some out in California walking around public. It is also California like That's not really good. It's legal. This I don't know why it makes the song. Let me share a story How you

spk_1:   1:14:44
were talking about when the cops came Thio do your investigation for the stuff that was stolen? Yeah, for a for of for us to call the cops like it is a That's a lot of anxiety that actually is a built

spk_0:   1:14:58
around like it's a last resort. Yeah, it's

spk_3:   1:15:01
like and then you have you and then you kind of phone a friend and have them there with you. It's like, for

spk_0:   1:15:07
I was told me you're like some guys stole this stuff and I just got in the back of it, that's what. So you got back The car was so excited he sent a selfie. I was like, Oh, you're in the back of a comfort. Wasn't excited. I wasn't. But I was like, Oh, wow, I'm in the back of a cop car nerve in her. But then I didn't think like that's a pretty adjustable to hop right in the car like

spk_2:   1:15:29
that. Anxious, Not like Am I gonna make it out of this alive? And then I I am black and I am gay, so have kind of like two strikes against me. What if this person doesn't like black people and then he doesn't like gay people? Is like, shit like Okay, I

spk_1:   1:15:46
actually might be the suspect.

spk_3:   1:15:47
Yeah, they might assume I'm the suspect. Right? But I'm actually the victim

spk_0:   1:15:50
right where they might make you the suspect. Central Park five.

spk_2:   1:15:53
And you is You get I had to protect myself. And so it's like it goes back to what Gino was saying of like, All right, do I have somebody else with me here? Do I kind of need a witness? Do is my phone charge like these sympathies rings? I don't really think about it. It's like,

spk_0:   1:16:09
I don't know about you, but I never know what that growing up I was taught. My parents, like the cops are great. Look at the cops. Walk up to them. They say hi to you, give you a sticker a sucker like it's wonderful

spk_2:   1:16:19
you that come herself with, like, we see the

spk_0:   1:16:21
cop lights. We were like, Wow, seriously, they come in our neighborhood, and

spk_2:   1:16:25
that conversation is that I got Personally, I can't speak for everybody, But that conversation I got is like, Hey, if you get stopped, make sure you get your stuff out. Make sure your hands of visible it was like, make sure you it essentially is like, hey, make sure you are not threatening them, even though it's like you have somebody who should be good as far as like, judgment and should be able to make sure that you're right. But then it comes to those moments where you have to have those conversations with your black sons. I

spk_0:   1:16:52
mean, just think about what you just said. So much anxiety in my hands are sweating, thinking like you have to get everything prepared and like, Keep your hands Ooh, right, Well, even then and even then, and even when it's filmed, even where the passenger is filming, we still see these clear examples of cops just shooting innocent people. And it's like, Okay, an innocent black people like It's never a white guy's getting shot. And

spk_3:   1:17:17
it's not just, you know, with law enforcement it I mean, I have friends when they're e mailing to get an apartment like their name sounds like it may not be a colonizers name. So then, like, they they literally don't get the apartment that don't get a email back. But I might e mail, since I have a name that you know is pretty kind of a man. Yeah, like I mean and they don't assume that I can assume a race kind of based on it, I guess. And so there's that. And then I'm I've gone with friends that, you know, when I go to look at apartments, too. I mean, I wouldn't wear sweat pants or a sweatshirt. I would make sure I look, you know, I kind of overdressed because I want to be kind of less threatening. I don't want them to think that I'm going to do things to their home is just all these kind of subconscious things that you do. And it's, you know, it's it's, you know, it's it's kind of president. Every aspect of every day, all the time. How

spk_0:   1:18:05
do you have a moment of peace when you die? Your kids live on you. That's your piece. Also, just with your mother? Yes. It's all the time

spk_1:   1:18:22
shopping. Buying a car like Oh, yeah, if I

spk_0:   1:18:26
like. I walked out of Kroeber the other day with, like, Lacroix pack on the bottom of the car and I didn't scan it. Didn't think twice about this. No, you worry about that. Yeah. Okay. All right.

spk_2:   1:18:38
That is a really spirit. Like what you were saying as far as, like apartments. You even the intersection of being gay, You even try to like. Okay, let me make sure my boys sound ever Just so these air sometimes things that you try to do too, in order to simulate and kind of get in this forest like being able to navigate safely. And so, as far as like, the store is always even though I know I have money, I know I have a job. I know. I'm I don't steal. I don't have a history of still and I pay for this stuff. I paid for my stuff. I hold my receipt literally. I still just get anxious because I'm like, Okay, shit, this thing's gonna go off. And even though I know I didn't steal anything, that perception is and it just becomes so soul crushing cause it's like, Fuck, I'm perpetuating this or somebody else. So somebody's gonna feel like their theory of me or a group that looks like me. Stealing is a real thing because of this, and it's like

spk_1:   1:19:37
I think, even going back my my experience, I move kind of frequently because of my job. Every time I'm looking for an apartment I prefer to email on. And then I actually give, like, the whole spiel that put him in. I'm active. Duty military. I'm relocating. I have this position and I am interested in this apartment, you know? So then ivory painted a picture of you show me, or when you talk to me on the phone, like Okay, well, it's the past, because, you know, you have all these other credentials,

spk_3:   1:20:08
and that's exhausting.

spk_0:   1:20:09
And it sounds so exhausting all over Tokyo. You have

spk_3:   1:20:15
all of that, and it still doesn't matter, you know, sometimes, yeah, or sometimes you kind of like flip what people, Frank. And that's kind of intimidating to

spk_0:   1:20:24
I know. That's why I wanted to talk about it, cause it's like like I I'm not saying you guys are making me feel like a piece of shit. But I almost like now, feel like when you realize what you've walked around with a life like yeah, like I'm gonna get high in public and just run around and be like I mean, like, these are things that you guys like. Well, I'm clutching my receipts and, like I'm telling everyone that I'm a coder and I'm like running out like That's fine. Wow, that's fine. That was a really that's I mean, that hit home for me like, yeah, I'm privileged if

spk_2:   1:20:56
you're going out. If you driving Lee, if you kind of get anxiety the later against and it's like, Oh, well, let me make sure I take this road. I don't want to get stopped. And then if I get stopped and I'm by myself, what is that look alike? And so that anxiety, definitely moments like that, and it's kind of like a people. You go out, you have fun you're not really thinking about all right. Well, when I get home, how late is it was going on? What role should I take to get there quickly or safely?

spk_0:   1:21:20
Or if your license is expired by nine months and you get pulled over and get a verbal warning and grand view didn't even know I didn't even know Verbal warning walked Well, Okay, Bye,

spk_2:   1:21:33
Or you may not get a warning. Sometimes it's like a even if it is, it's like something that could be small. You may not get that warning, and so it's like a if you get a warning that just that anxiety before that moments like, Oh,

spk_3:   1:21:46
I mean, actually, the friend that got pulled over a couple months ago because he had a broken tail light. And then the cop, you know, said this week you know why he pulled him over. But then he's like, Oh, have you been smoking? And so even like having a Gwede. And he and I was on the phone because he I stayed on the phone during the encounter and it was, like, infuriating. And it's just like those situations happen when they get pulled over for something that's unrelated to

spk_0:   1:22:09
lie. And then have you been smoking?

spk_3:   1:22:11
Yeah, it's like, you know, why are you assuming that? You know, Is that the same night, a question that you would ask for everybody. Remember when I was in undergrad, I got pulled over. It was like maybe five on a Friday and it was three black guys in the car. And then I got pulled over and, you know, they said, Oh, we saw you touched the line kind of you touch center a couple of times and stuff and then, you know, But when they when I came the windows like, Oh, well, we're just college students. It savior, you know, we're on, we're on our way back. And so I have said all these things that, like make us seem like we're weren't threatening and yeah, and in all that stuff and it's just you have to do those things. I don't know that every group has to think about that or has to prove that their humanity is worth something, you know.

spk_2:   1:22:53
And it is frustrating because it's like it really is. It's just like, Well, no, it's almost kind of like, no matter what I do, In certain instances, it's like the perception is still gonna be the same. But if you get frustrated like you're still gonna be put in this box or if I do this and we're putting this so it almost becomes is very stifling that time to to do anything. And so sometimes you'll see people like I know there were a string of just like, Hey, this black man is murdered, this person got murdered and it's just like almost like I have to just back away just for my own sanity, just to kind of like take a mental break because it can be exhausted. I

spk_3:   1:23:32
think the more like, I guess, intersections you have. I think the worse it gets and the more you have toe prove and stuff. So I think, you know, yeah, it just kind of compounds And like the further away you get from a white straight male, like the more you have to work kind of counter act, whatever stereotypes are misconceptions that people have about you,

spk_1:   1:23:57
probably my final art in my final statement, white privilege. And I think about this current trash box administration that Barack Obama cannot get away with. Half of the stuff, though this man is able to actually get away with. And I think that that's is this an example

spk_0:   1:24:13
Stop. One essential white privileges of a mediocre was a news story when he wore a tan suit to a press conference when he was a long time. He was so unprofessional suspect in the office, he put his feet on the desk in the Oval Office, just like a Reagan did it. Jeff Keita. There's photos of them. Barack Obama does. He's disrespecting the office. Lookit what Trump does every day and it's okay. It's fine. Yeah, he's kidding. Oh, he doesn't know what he's doing. Oh, well, he just He's joking. Yeah, that's perfect. That is perfect example of white privilege.

spk_2:   1:24:55
So what do you guys think? It's faras like if people say, like, Hey, you're playing the your plane like the race card, you know, like what? What are you guys these thoughts as far as like, people saying, Hey, well, you're just playing the race card in this situation. What do you thoughts it? Justus Faras Like that phrase

spk_1:   1:25:12
at my job? I mean, of course, with the Equal Opportunity Month last month being Black History Month, I had a book club for in the position I'm in. I am having a book club every month based off of the E o months that are out there and last month, being the 1st 1 for black history are We read the book Just Mercy on by Bryant Stevens, and it's a book, and it's also a movie. You haven't seen it? Go see it, um, various

spk_3:   1:25:40
fundamental. The book is probably little better to read a book and then to the movie,

spk_1:   1:25:45
Correct. So um, the panel or August, the book Club it was four individuals. It was myself and a odor on black Man and two white men on and in the dynamic, one of what one of the individuals was saying, basically saying like he's tired of hearing about, you know, Are we pulling the race car just because we ask about specific questions or when we feel that we're being targeted? Is it always about race? I don't think that's always about race, but as a black man were for me, I'm always on edge. I am always wondering What is this person going to say about me or about my entire race? That's gonna catch me off guard? And so I try not to be off guard because I don't know what you're going to say.

spk_3:   1:26:36
Yeah, I definitely think that I experience being black a lot more than experience, you know, being gay. Yeah, it almost like a afterthought. But black is something that I feel like. It's just it's just

spk_0:   1:26:48
you're never not seen his black, but it's But have you seen a straight Yeah. I mean, you're just walking around.

spk_3:   1:26:55
Yeah, So there's there's that too. Yeah, but you aren't ever off like you said like it's something that people see from the jump. People might even hear it in your voice. I mean, in your name, like it's Yeah. Just doesn't ever stop

spk_0:   1:27:08
know tyro. Okay, Bobby's shock Wave three. You're gonna be thinking about Remy. Your we're gonna just got it over here. New picture edges. I mean, I'm serious. It was teacher shit together. Literally 20 minutes. Get your toothbrush, girl. Can't just Yes. God, Thank you, guys.

spk_1:   1:27:36
So much for going in. And I'm

spk_0:   1:27:38
talking. And honestly, we should just continue this conversation some other way. We can continue who? Some other time. I would love to talk again. Cool. Cool. Cool, Cool brow. Butch it up. Thanks, guys. Thanks. Everything's great. Hey, Leo. And that was the interview. Thank you to the boys for coming. So awesome. It was so good. I really, really appreciate them. Coming. I don't think you understand how much I appreciate it, but they will cause I'll hug him every time I see him. I love interesting stories. You know, Everyone's story is different, and I like it. I like a lot. And again, we are a lot more alike than we realize. That's so that's that's yeah, things I got out of it and just my white privilege that I need to be cognisant off a giant giant block of privilege that you don't even know that you have. Really? Cause you just don't on and you hear these stories, you're like, one second we're in the same latest. We're in the same place, right? Like it's two different worlds. How? Well, um, so anyway, before you injure yourself any further, we price to wrap this up. But I do want to say, if you haven't subscribed, I don't know what the fuck your problem is. Please Same. Um please. And it's on Instagram. Please tag us and things. Write us and tell us what you want to talk about. All that line, whatever that number is called the number. Call the number. Okay, I have it written down somewhere. 6692 something. God, I'm no wonder no one calls and I'm like nobody. Oh, we do have a caller. Oh, the Irish episode, which I think is that her next couple of days like yeah, are saying Hattie's episode will say I whatever ST Patty's I gonna talk all things Irish who fund we do a little research and, like I look into things. People hate Irish people, though. I mean, like, Yeah, well, it's fine. We're learning about a bunch of different people. So we'll do. We'll have a leper con on. We're next week we have Next. Which arm has a lucky charm? Leper con Zehava name? Probably. Probably seemingly rainbow are something Randy Randy he rented from Chase Visa. Marshmallow Man. That's his tinder account. Marshmallow man. He's a little slot. Little doughboy. Old Izzy. Chunky. No. Well, they're magically delicious. Oh, no, boy. All right, we're gonna wrap it falling off the rails yet fully fallen. Um, again. Thank you for listening. This is another episode of she's not doing so well. I'm Bobby. I'm Jim. Thank you. Bye bye. Thank you for listening to another episode of she's not doing so well. Leave a message with questions or comments at 6692074643 Don't forget to subscribe and check out our links in the podcast description of this episode views,

spk_1:   1:30:46
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